Rafizi’s BERSAMA, PKR Breakups. DAP – When is Your Turn?

I hope he's listening. Why don't we do an open invitation to come here for conversation? You know the list of questions that we ask about sedition act, the tolls, the doctor is a he's a transportation contractor. The tolls, you know, the banking system, there's so many things we ask. If he can say give us answer, this is going to be our policy. I can assure you he'll get votes because the Malaysian public now is fed up of all these crap talking which we need specific specific you give us details of what you're going to do for us. I want to know what he can do for me.

Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Gut Shot podcast. I'm Shamsul Sam. Today we're going to have a if we are in golf, we call it a three ball or a threesome. So back with us and back with me and Saib is Dr. Rosli Zak. Welcome, doctor.

Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Very happy to be here. I'll say good morning too. We're going to have a fun subject today. We will analyze I think on this current event the recently the recent breakup of PKR initiated by Rafizi Ramli and Nik Nazmi with their resignation. And either joining or you know taking up the mantle at the party Bersatu. Yeah. And I think you feel that this is a significant occurrence or a significant uh uh

It's historical for me. Oh, okay, good. It's historical. It's historical from your point of view. All right, we're going to have a we're going to have a a good debate on this. I think Syed Saddiq have a different opinion. I may have a different opinion. So, this is good. This is good.

Because you don't you don't Shall we start with you first? Yeah, because you don't get MPs who resign from their post very often in this country. Right. They like to switch parties, but they don't resign because they they forget that when they were got elected, they were elected on certain party platform. And they they they got supported by the voters who saw them representing a party with a certain manifestos and certain promises and so on. But when they switch party that means they are no longer you know, representing those voters that they represented. So, they by right they should resign.

But they don't. In this country, they don't. Okay. And and and since 2022, after the legislated version of anti-hopping law was put into into place. Rafizi and Nik Nazmi are the only one who resigned. But but there have been cases of many MPs who switch party but they didn't they didn't resign.

Okay. They didn't uh Okay. And prior to 2022, if you look at the record I think about 40 MPs switch parties. But they didn't resign. Yeah, they jump from one party to another and so on prior to 2022, 40 of them.

Okay. About 40 of them. Okay. So, it's a common common thing in Malaysia until recently, yeah. That's why I consider it's it's historic. All right. I I think I get your point on that one. I get your point. Before I go to say it, I might my my thought actually go to a different to a different angle actually, but uh um and my angle is more that to me uh I agree that the principle of it that if you are elected on a certain party um then it's it's it's in principle. I I tend to agree with you that in principle that you should get a new mandate.

Yes. Right? a new mandate. Um but uh on the other hand, I've been a proponent of actually uh electorate voting for the person rather than voting for the party. Yeah. So, to me it becomes more and more clear that uh our voter should be open to either party or independents because you should be looking at persons.

Mhm. And they should be allowed to actually form a coalition after the after the fact. And then they vote whichever way they want. Yes. Yeah, you you may have point. If if you uh stood um for election as an independent.

Yeah. Then it's it's right. People vote for you as a person. Yes. But in most cases in Malaysia, I think very few independent win in the election. Yeah, that's the So so most of them represent parties.

Mhm. So they they they get supported by the parties. The whole machinery party machinery uh campaign for them and so on. So people look at them as party representatives.

Well, I I see this is an evolution of the political system. Yeah. Um I think at this stage, I think say it, you please I think you have your own opinion on this. Yes, my view is the the practical aspect of it, la. You see?

I think now they're not going to have by-election. No. Because Because the It's too late, isn't it? The the the system is such that if you if there's a vacancy happens but midway through the

Less than 2 years left. So there's no more there's no more by election. You need more than 2 years left in the present term of the parliament by election. So in that way it doesn't qualify. I think Rafizi already knew that. So then you quit as the as the member of parliament. You know there's not going to be any Uh yes. So he's no more present in the parliament. You see?

Yeah. Uh well, to me like I my the way I'm looking at it would have been better for him to have remained in the party and he's he's already he's still a member of parliament. He's you have a louder voice so you're in parliament. I think he can still go about organizing this other party. I mean you know, you can always do the organization work and somebody can set it up and later he can join it. Once the parliament is dissolved and then he can join it. He can go about organizing it for us but now he is out of parliament. I suppose it gives him more freedom to

fully devote his time to to building up this new party Bersatu, isn't it? Yeah, but again I from my efficacy practical aspect point of view I mean it's debatable. It's just my view but that's how I look at it. I don't see why he

He should resign. Yeah, I Actually if I were him I would stay in PKR. Because I know PKR is going to get wiped out. He's going to get wiped out and there's going to be a vacuum and then the the young Turks have a better chance of coming out. In PKR. Now he's out of PKR.

Well, I I look at it differently. I think okay. Uh first of all that they're not many honest politicians. You know? Right? I mean if you're honest you don't come if you're honest you don't come to politics.

So if you are honest, I think you won't become politician, right? So, that's that's a Okay, that's political. You mean if you're honest, you will not become a politician? not become a politician. So, but Okay. If you know that you are not going to represent the party anymore, you're not going to support the leadership and so on. I think the honest thing for you to do is to resign. You might as well leave the party. Why wait? Why wait? Why waste your time, you know, pretending that you are supporting the party, pretending that you are supporting the leadership? I

think that's not that's a very dishonest way to Do you think MCA should leave the the Pakatan? I should I should leave. Why? One human being, she makes those videos, he really shoots the shoots them in in the head.

I I think MCA I think they they they don't speak the truth. If if you speak the truth, you won't Why why are you you know, scared of the truth? Well, here's the thing. Um and and it's uh it's all debatable. Well, I I understand the principle of it.

Yeah. I also understand his point of view in terms of efficacy, Yeah. right? And sometimes, while you say, "Okay, they were elected by through the party machinery or through the party manifesto." But it may not also be true because some people that are in the electorate actually voted for him personally.

Personally, yeah. Right? Yeah. So, that is really a debatable issue. I mean, so I do agree with both of you, to be honest. Okay? Uh Bernie, uh 50% with you, 50% with you.

Can I Can I just go through some dates and the number of seats uh very quickly? Please. Yeah. Because because there's a larger picture which I see lah Yeah. for PKR. Which is which is why I say they don't have a great chance in the future. You see, 2018 general elections, they won 40 48 parliamentary seats.

Mhm. And then then went through the Dr. Mahathir 2.0 and the Sheraton move and all that all that that confusing time. And then the next election 2022, they went down to 31 parliamentary seats. They lost

Uh 17, you know. Yeah. And then and then you know, of course nobody won the elections the hung parliament. Then 2023, this one is very important also. 2023 the six states the six states elections.

Yeah. Uh PKR contested 58 seats and they only won 19. 1/3 only. Yeah. Only 33% success rate. Below 50 fail. Yeah. And then Sabah state elections they contested 12 and they got one seat.

Yeah. So you can see that they are The the trend. Yeah, it's going down. They are way they are down. They are down. So how do I link this with Rafizi's action now? So Rafizi now has like gone his separate ways now with from PKR. But I look at it as personality clash inside PKR between Rafizi and the party leadership and basically power struggle. So these things the these things started boiling and boiling over after the the 2022 elections and after the six state elections 2023 where they can see Rafizi and his the young Turks now the younger generation. They can see that

the party is going down. So I think they started making their aspirations and all that. They think they can do a better job. But the old guard coup d'état and basically kicked Kicked them out.

got rid of them. Yeah. They So this is what has happened. It is a personality clash as well as a power struggle inside PKR that has brought So in your opinion, this is more of a power struggle thing

Yes. rather than policy there is no indication by Rafizi now. Of course he has made some statements that what he's trying to promise and all that, but the question is he has not criticized PKR's policies. There's nothing specific he has said that you know, I don't agree with PKR anymore because of this policy, therefore I want to leave.

The reform reform agenda. He mentioned reform. He mentioned things like limiting dependence on foreign labor, child care, and then less of this rental economy. Kind of like generalized la, but he did not say specifically that these are the issues with PKR that I don't I don't agree with. I think Remember the previous podcast if I may finish your point. If Remember the previous podcast we made we had these questions for Rafizi. We ask him to answer yes or no. For example, will you abolish the Sedition Act? Yes or no?

It's not there. It's UEC, what is your Give a yes or no on UEC. Things like this. No, it doesn't matter what is your view. We need an answer. Correct. Because you are you are you are the These are these are tangible things. to know we don't know where you stand, you see? This is what I'm trying to say is that has his position changed vis-a-vis PKR's policies? Is he Is he breaking with PKR because he said, "Oh, I've at last after so many years I'm fed up with PKR's policies." He hasn't He has not made that statement. And PKR's policies is UMNO's policies from 1970s.

Okay, same. Nothing has changed. Okay. Let's let's have uh uh So so so if he's outside now he starts this new party Bersama. Okay, Rafizi might be able to carry his Pandan seat and all that la. But what about the rest of the country?

Guys, on mainly episode. So at this stage, I think everybody we want to actually challenge not just masyarakat our Malay community, but also our whole Malaysian citizenship. All right? In a way of thinking that is different. All right? So we want to commute to create this community of critical thinkers. I know. So I think let's spread out this type of thinking, get people to share, like, and actually if you are not subscribed yet, subscribe to this channel so that you get episodes like what we do here at Guys Shot, and you get more of this kind of content, yeah? That's uh this one.

There's a few points there. One is the party policy, and then as a member or MP, whatever and so on, you have to tow the line of the party policy. That's what's happening in a lot of parties and so on. And you mentioned another issue, which is the old guard. Right? The old guard. Now, very few parties in in this country uh where they have a very clear transition from the old um leaders to the next leader and so on, right? So, um in the case of PKR, now, we we are looking at a person who has been in the in the party business for like close to 50 years. Anwar has been in in in in politics for

for like 50 years, from since 1970s, mid-70s. 83, yeah. And and if you look at other parties also, I'm not I'm not picking on PKR. If you look at other parties, PAS for instance, Hadi Awang Adi has been in party business for like 50 years as well, right? And people in UMNO, they have been there for life. So, where is the transition of changing the guard from the old leaders to the young generation?

But they've lost the elections. It's not happening. That's why they lost elections, no change. Yeah, no change. 2008, they lost two-thirds. 2018, they lost elections. If you are a youngster in the party, you've been waiting for 40 years to get to the top? I think that's a bit unreasonable.

Well, well, okay. May I put my point in in the sense that this is my problem with uh where we are at uh as far as party politics are concerned. Okay? Um it's not so much how are the young guys coming up. Uh first I take the principle of uh what Syed was saying, which is uh the the the Where is the change?

Yeah. What what is he proposing as a change? Yeah. What are you telling the people? Yes. Are you telling the people what can I do for you? Or this is what I'm going to do for you. Yeah, because I I listened

hear that. I I listened to the uh to the whole speech by uh Rafizi and Nik Nazmi. Okay. Okay? Apart from motherhood statements of we need more fairness, we need to forget about all these uh

Tomorrow must be better than today. today, you know. Yeah. Nothing concrete like what we were saying. Give me specific. What like what we say. UEC Why UEC is important? It's not that reason. It's about recognizing fairness.

Yeah. Okay? Reducing taxation to areas that are not productive to growth. Why are you bringing in more tahfiz student into university? Okay? But What I'm saying is this. I'm going to go a bit with Syed on this part, which is you can still be in parliament. Yeah. Okay? Within the party and actually be against the party punya positions. Why? Because you're elected by the people regardless. Regardless you're elected by the people. Okay? You can argue the semantics of that. Okay? But if you have a change in terms of how you going to what you want to offer to the people differently, you

should be able to say that in parliament. Yeah. But that's what what you are saying has been happening in Bersatu. A lot of people members in Bersatu has spoken up against the party policy policies, against the party's wrong doing and so on. They have criticized the party, they have criticized the leadership and where they are now? They have been they are out for the party.

So he So they get sacked. So here goes. If he's going to get sacked, he gets sacked. Yeah. Right? So but as long as he is there quit. Huh? He quit.

This is a different. Okay? Whilst I I will take that there is a principle to it. There is also a loss to the people he's representing. Okay? So I I think the more problematic that I see regardless is actually I don't see any change in terms of the policies of Bersatu.

Can I Okay, I'm sorry Bersama. I don't I don't see I don't see Bersama is a new party. A new party but the they they came up with something like a manifesto or an objective that they spelled out. I don't see it.

You you know I I mentioned it in my piece saying that you know you you may disagree with his political stand on certain issues and so on but the principle behind it is that you know if you are no longer with the party, you are no longer with the leadership, the best thing for you is to resign.

Firstly, I will give you that. Yes. That's the principle, right? Fine. I will give you that. Okay, now on his party he mentioned that uh it is a multi-racial party. I think I think we we have to be very truthful about this. I think in Malaysia today uh if you are if you are coming from a race-based parties, I think there's no future anymore.

Yeah, it has no future. It has to be multi-racial party. It has to be Malaysian party. You you have to be fair to the minority group in the country, you know, even though you come from a majority group, but you have to be fair to the non-Malays here. So, they represent about 36, 35% of the population in the country. So, if you form a new party, you cannot play that race card anymore. You It has to be open. It has to be multi-racial party. And I think I I I look at that as a major contribution, the way forward for Malaysia. And I think the more multi-racial party, the better we'll be.

Oh, on that score, I agree with you. I I feel that there should be more uh parties. Uh period. More parties. In fact, I would my my my proponent is actually based more like I would prefer to see more good independents coming out of non-party system. You know why? Because the party system is actually where you kiss the ass of your party leader first. I you know, I I I've had enough of kissing asses of party leaders.

Yeah. All right, Said. You want to say something? Yeah, yeah. I I just got a couple of points. Okay, so now Because this is going to be a very long conversation. Rafizi Rafizi has made up his decision and he's embarking on his new new party, Parti Bersatu. First of all, I want to say congratulations. And having said all this, uh

Yeah. I vote in Lembah Pantai Uh-huh. in KL, uh Right. And if Rafizi fields a candidate in Lembah Pantai, I will vote for Bersatu. Mhm. Simply because to shake everything upside down, or to change the system. Anybody who's new, who is different from the existing crowd of people, I will vote. So, if Rafizi fields somebody in Lembah Pantai, you got one vote, lah. But I I just want to share some ideas. Maybe

I don't vote for Lembah Pantai. If I If I live in Lembah Pantai, I will probably do the same. So, uh See, the the the thing is Okay, there are two things. How well can Parti Bersama do overall in Malaysia? I mean, they're a brand new party. The second thing is about policy. Let's do the how well will they do first. So far, you know, like a lot of politics in Malaysia, especially multiracial politics like PKR. It is a more of a Klang Valley phenomenon. Kuala Lumpur or Klang Valley, that's where all the action happens. And people, they're all here. But how well can the new party do or let's say

in Sungai Siput or Jitra or Sandakan or Sarawak? I can tell you in Sabah and Sarawak, they don't even know these things are going on. They they're really a different So so it it is a new party. Rafizi can maybe win his seat in Pandan, a few of the other henchmen the the the what? The Hulubalang and the Perwira, their Palawan can win a few seats. Yeah. But I don't think they're going to make any big change in the electoral results. They're a new party. Or they might get wiped out.

But whatever it is, you know, to me, the most important thing is we need the policy. Yeah. If I if I can share this opinion with Rafizi, don't talk general terms. Tell us exactly. You see the UEC you mentioned, you are very much in favor of UEC. It's okay if Rafizi doesn't accept the UEC.

I want to hear what you are. Yes. Be honest. Yes. Yeah, and tell them why. I say this is my position. This is my party position. That's what I want to hear. That's That's what you said. Where are the honest politicians? It doesn't matter whether you agree with UEC or you don't agree. It doesn't matter. But Rafizi, it doesn't matter. But you state your point. Then we know exactly where you are. You must be honest. So we need this kind of honesty from the all politicians, which is what we don't have.

And not honesty from politicians. we don't have. So this is a chance, to me, this is a chance for Rafizi to be that honest person. You say exactly what you would But I do want to see more things. The questions we asked Rafizi last time, Sedition Act, yes or no?

Yes. We need an answer. Yeah. I I hope Rafizi is listening. Why why don't we we we do an open invitation Rafizi and Nik Nazmi come here for conversation?

You know the list of questions that we asked Sedition Act, the tolls, Dr. Contractor, he's a transportation contractor, the tolls, you know, the banking system, there's so many things we we asked. If he can say give us answer, this is going to be our policy, I can assure you he'll get votes.

Yeah. You know, the Malaysian public now is fed up of all these crap talking, yeah, which we talked about. All motherhood statements. We need specific specific you give us details of what you're going to do for us. I want to know what he can do for me.

Yeah. Let's see let's see let's let's hear what Rosli has to say. Rosli, what you are saying is is correct, but doesn't that apply to Pakatan Harapan on the whole? So

No, brother, we lost the election. Yeah, all of us. Because in in Sabah, PKR got one seat. If you recall in 2022, when PH went to the voters, they they were campaigning, yes, but they were campaigning on the basis of reform.

Yeah, they They wanted they wanted to It doesn't work anymore. They lost 2022, nobody could form the government. 2023 in 2022. Unfortunately, after their campaign, they just say oh, it's only a manifesto.

Yeah, yeah. But don't they realize they lost the election? But that's changed their policy. The the the their the the reform that they were talking about was changing the policies of the country. They wanted to abolish uh Akta University Act. They wanted to abolish Sedition Act. They wanted to abolish the uh Publication Act. So many so many acts that they wanted to

It doesn't work anymore. But it but it it doesn't happen. They never did it. They won one seat. They won they won one seat in Sabah. Yeah. They won 19 seats in the six states. It doesn't work anymore.

you are a member of PKR or DAP today, yeah, this is what you are hanging on. And for how many more elections are you going to lose before you realize that you are losing? So now they they come to a stage where they say, "Oh, enough is enough. I'm leaving PKR. I'm leaving DAP. I'm leaving Amanah."

To repeat the same things? You left PKR. Are you going to repeat the same thing that PKR did? I think they they should look at reform, change the policy like what you suggested. Which what I said, that they have to be precise. They should campaign on that.

The time has come. They have to be precise and concise and detailed and tell us what exactly they're going to do. What do you say, motherhood statements? Yeah, it's all motherhood statements. Anyway, sorry. My excuse me. The The thing is that recently I think you get to the point which is actually, yeah, they've given us all this and they never implemented. In fact, they back away from it, right? So if they are people are going to go out and say, "I'm done with you guys." either they stay in or they lawan from inside. And let it be public, right? Actually,

you support the right word that I wanted to hear just now. You You used the word DAP. Okay? I'm actually wanting to see today how many of the DAP members are willing to speak out in Parliament against their own party that are not implementing.

They won't. They won't do that because they tow the party line. That's the problem. Yes, they won't. That's absolutely the problem. Because why? You're not You're Here goes my problem with the party party politics.

they're going to have a convention on the 12th of July Why wait for 12th of July? They could do it yesterday. To debate whether they stay in Pakatan Harapan. Yeah, why wait for 12th of July?

No. Yeah, no reason to wait. Right. Because you made a promise and you are part of the government now today. And for two years two and a half years three years now, Me me me me and Said we are American graduates, right? You look at the Congress in the in the states, you look at the senator the president Trump wants to even pass a jet legislature. It is not easy even to corral his own his his own party to vote for him for the legislation that they want. Why? Because they will be a block of certain people or even one or two guys who are going to say, "I'm not voting for that because my

I'm representing my constituent." You see the difference in the way they think. They are Republican Party. But when they go into Congress or they go into Senate what they say is, "I'm representing my constituents, okay? And I don't think I can get my constituent to support me to vote for that legislation." Why can't that happen in Malaysia? Why is that wrong to not go the line?

I I think as you said, it's a party Bersatu, it's a multiracial party. And Rafizi is going to depend a lot on multiracial support and multiracial voters. So and and and the the multiracial punya agenda is also the same for the Malay agenda, for example. Because what is good for the rest of the country is also good for the entire Malay community. Because you know, it is based more on that less interference by government and more open to market forces, things like that. So that is good for the whole country. I think if Rafizi can focus a bit on that, he's going to attract a lot of

multicultural support and also Malay vote. But you you you know what Something that works. Can I come back to you on your point? Yeah. I think the expectation of voters and people in Malaysia is too high for the politicians because you look at them which I think is wrong. You look at them as leaders of the country. I don't I don't look at them as leaders.

Okay. I want to hear this one. Yeah. Because because you you have to position yourself in the leadership position. It takes a lot of different character and and different type of qualification that you want to be leaders. Right? As an MP, you are not a leader. You are representing the party for that constituency to go into parliament to enact laws. Nothing more than that. You're not a leader.

Wow. Now we are talking about but now we are talking about electoral philosophy. Yes. Election time they come and tell us your future in my hands. Yeah. You are just a representative.

No. When when So when you compare to the Americans, they they go back to their constituents and speak about this I don't think my constituents will allow me to vote for that bill which I'm not supporting. Malaysians don't do that because they are not in leadership position.

Well, okay. Okay. Okay. I I will I I I will say this though. I I have to disagree with you Rosli on this part. Okay? Because why? When you represent your constituents, you are a leader for that constituency.

Representatives, not You're when you are the top of the represent you are representative Are they really performing leadership roles? That's the difference. Yes. That's the difference because they are not doing that.

The past are more direct. They say pimpinan ulama. Yes. Pimpinan. Some of them go to parliament. They hardly speak. They don't speak throughout the session. This on this call, I would say we the voters are the ones that need to change in terms of who we vote in. Because we we vote in by right, okay, they need to be able to be capable as legislature. They need to be also be capable to be leading rep as the lead representative of that constituency. So, if we don't have that, we shouldn't be voting for these people.

So, I advise the Malaysian voter to follow the baby diaper principle. Just keep changing everything. Because they smell. You are not a leader if you practice corruption. If you embezzle all the

Until until they get to that. Yeah. You you can't be called a leader. But but firstly, that you are taking the worst situation already. That is crime. But majority of them are involved in this sort of business.

Okay. So, There's no leadership. They're involved involved in the business. It's a business. But me, politics is a business.

But I would I would gather I would even say this at the very minimum, even if you don't involve yourself in all this malfeasance, okay, the fact that you are not capable as either a legislature or a a or a representative to lead your constituent,

You know, we should have invited Rosli for the earlier podcast politician Here here it goes. And this is where I think the more I hear you, the more I hear you, I more I I actually I'm I'm more convinced that, you know, because why? Let's put it this way. You know, Malaysian need to understand one thing. Registering a party, yeah, actually uh the government as much as they can, they would not allow you to register a party.

Mhm. Okay? Because they don't want that competition. Well, it's not they don't allow, but things can get delayed. Yeah, things, yeah, it's it's a bit difficult. Yeah, I I I I ROS ROS is controlled by the Home Affairs Minister.

Right. So Okay, so let's let's think about it in that sense. Yes. The second part is actually you want to elect your representative irrespective whether they have a party or not. No.

Because important thing is actually, yeah, when they vote or they form a a group to support, let's say, whoever is going to be Prime Minister or or whatever. They can also pull out when actually they see things are not right.

Things are not right. Yeah. This is what a mature democracy looks like. Right? Where you vote for your representative with or without a party.

Yeah. Okay? Because you look at the person. You look at the person, yeah. Yeah. I think this is something that we have to inculcate within our society in not in a very short time. Yeah. Cuz I really can't see you you look at it like, you know, when when I saw Bersatu punya ini kan, it's all motherhood statement. I'm asking, what's the difference? What are you proposing that is different than the party you just left?

That's a blessed my point exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What what just because of the power struggle? Or is it because of the people? Right? I look at DAP, I say, "Hey, where are the voices against that are, you know, right? Why are DAP people not speaking out that, you know, upper why is UEC being uh upper being put at par with Tahfiz students. Come on, man. Somebody speak up.

why why don't they speak up? Why don't they speak up? They claim to be a multi-racial party. Yes. But they don't speak uh they only speak for one group of community, but not the other two in in in Peninsular or the rest in Sabah, Sarawak, and so on.

So, how can you ask me, yeah? claim Rosie, one one thing, please. I mean, you say like that, I want to add this, right? I want to hear a DAP representative to say, yeah, "Okay, we should not be funding so much for religious studies in this country because we are losing out in the world.

Yeah. We should spend time on secular STEM subjects so that we can be a great nation." Yeah. I want to hear that from DAP. Where are you guys? Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Continue, please.

But they they only speak for for one community and they they see themselves as the defenders of that community. So, anything to do with that particular community, they they raise it. They raise the issue, but when it affects the other group other ethnic group, you know, whether Malays, Indian, or Sabah, Sarawakian, and so on, they don't speak up. So, how can you claim that you are representing a multi-racial party when you don't speak up for for the rest of the communities?

Mhm. Huh? So, uh you can see that happening. Well, the same goes with even PKR. PKR speaks on behalf of one community, if you ask me. Yes, but that goes back to my earlier point that the future in Malaysia is a multi-racial party. If you want to be a leader of a party, you have to represent all the races in the country. You can't represent only one particular group of people.

Yes, here's here's the reality we have seen over the last how many decades, right? We have multi-racial party. We have multi-racial party. But they don't speak that way, either.

There was the the issue was in the past. Now it's less. Now, last time, let's say 20, 30 years ago, whatever, uh you could identify, really identify different races with not only with different economic status, but also the kind of work, kind of profession they involved in. The jurang perbezaan was real. But now the country has changed a lot. Even now 2020, 2026, you know, the country is 70% urbanized, and there is a convergence between, regardless of what is your race, whether you are a Daya, Indian, Malay, Chinese, we all live in urban environments. We have the same issues. Our children have

the same issues going to school. You want to go to a hospital, you want to go to a government hospital, health issues, health services. So there is a convergence of interest for all Malaysians now. So the old style 1970s, 1980s, the Malays are the farmers, the Indian rubber tappers, there's no more rubber tappers. The Chinese in tin mining, all that is gone, way beyond us already. Now there is a convergence. So now there is a there is a need for politicians, multi-racial, multi-culturalism actually is just focusing on convergence of issues that affect majority of Malaysians. We live

in urban environments, 70%. Even the small towns, I was in, you know, recently I took a drive with my wife. We wanted to see these quaint little towns in Negeri Sembilan. We went to Bahau, you know. It's a metropolis, not a small town at all. I was shocked, you know. It's a huge place. So everywhere in Malaysia, urbanization is very well developed. So we have now all cosmopolitan urban issues, regardless of what race. So this this this race-based politics is all gone. It's gone. You got to focus on issues that are common to all Malaysians.

They all have the same issues. This is what some of these politicians, they are still not only old guys, even the young fellows, they are still in the Jurassic Park. Like they stuck in the stone Because they all come through the same party political

But see, you're going to say a few things. Yeah. No, but that goes back to to what you you were saying earlier on. We have to get rid of the old guards in in the country because they are the one who has been

promoting and The old way of thinking. old way of thinking You and I are also old guy, you know. So, so they are the one who's been you know promoting all these you know, play the racial cards in the politics and so on. Which and it doesn't allow the youngsters to come up because the youngsters of today, they are I don't believe that they are racist. The the youngsters of today, they don't see each other as you know, certain from certain ethnic group and all these things and so on. They see themselves as Malaysian. Right? So, this is something that we need to promote.

But they don't get promoted by the old guards in the party politics system. So, the party politics still continue with their narrative that oh, our party is to look after the interest of this particular community. The other community is a threat to us, you know, they are our enemy, they are these, they are that and so on. Which is doesn't not helping the whole country.

Yeah. I think it's just I'm I'm I'm I'm I somewhat like you what Satan saying. It's just not the old guard. The political party system actually has within its guardrails a mindset that is that had and a culture uh has been ingrained by the old gods, it just get passed down to the new gods, the new turk. That's why when I look at what uh what do you call people even people like Sai Saddiq talk, huh? Even people like uh when me as me talk, it's all motherhood statement. He said dude come out and say I am going to uh I'm going to reduce uh affirmative action in this way, okay, within this period.

Abolish the tolls. I'm going to abolish the toll. Yeah, be very specific. I don't Do something. Do something. Do something. really don't want to listen to all these motherhood statement, huh? How can you say to people in that speech, okay, we need to have a fair a more a fair society, but at the same time you've got the NEP for the last 60 years. What are you talking about? You just you just you you just bullshitting people.

Tomorrow shall be better than today. Yeah, the sky will come up and it's going to probably be a bigger yellow. I know 25% chance of rain. The sun will rise tomorrow. Yeah, I mean like so give us specific, you know? I think we need to abolish the the the the sedition act. It's very simple in parliament, huh? Okay, you can put up a bill. Any uh any any parliamentarian can put up a bill in conjunction you among your you you coordinate amongst some of like-minded people. You put up a bill. And then let's see how many people vote for, how many people vote against. Next election we know who to

to to vote out. Uh it's not so straightforward because it depends on the speaker. The speaker is coming from the same party. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. won't it won't work. Do do it. Do it. It's the same. If the speaker does not want to put it, now your MP, you make noise. I put up this bill. Why is the speaker not this one? But we don't have that happening in a vibrant democracy.

Ours is not really democratic. Right. Yeah. No. I mean just just because the speaker is appointed by the ruling government, so to speak, doesn't mean I cannot complain about it. Doesn't mean that if I have four Tell me, yeah, even if I have four, five independent that is willing to speak up with me, I tell you there's a lot of noise because I can guarantee you 50% of the people in Parliament does not turn up. And they are probably from the same old guard.

This is where we we have to educate the public. At the end of the day, it comes down to the voter. If these people don't deliver, the politician, then you have to you have to remove them. You have to change them. Kick them out. That's it. We have a democracy, right? We The only chance we have is when we put the ballot in the voting box. But it But it doesn't stop the public or the members of Parliament or whoever, even us as podcasters, to to try to influence the public opinion, to exert pressure as a pressure group, to raise issues, raise awareness. We are only then we can bring about change.

But at the end of the day, the the single strike, you know, the baseball game where you get a strike, you hit the ball out of the park, is when the when the election comes around. That's when the people, the public, the voters really have to make the right decision. And my suggestion is

Kick them out. Keep changing your vote. Until Yeah, keep changing your vote. Kick them out until we get someone who listens to us and they really delivers. Until then, just keep changing like the the baby's dirty diaper. Just keep changing as soon as often as you can.

Otherwise, these These are not going to learn any lessons from so far. They they they they they keep getting voted back into power. Even when they lose after the election, nobody can form the government, so they are back through the back door through the forming this coalition, that coalition, and they are back in power.

I I I honestly don't mind coalition upon coalition upon coalition until we kick them out, kick them out. Coalition, coalition. Sooner or later, it's just like evolution. They have to learn.

They must learn. The the species that will survive, okay, will be the one that actually the selection process will determine. And and it is good that every time there's a change in government, the new government goes after wrongdoers in the in the previous government.

And you know, takes whatever action against them. That is also required, necessary. It's a part of the evolution, the process. You have to go through it. So, my my final piece to say is that the the public, just keep changing your vote until the politicians deliver. Right now, they are not delivering.

Now, you want to uh funny wrap up something? No, I think they they got to be a new system. New system. You you can't allow the same person to be in politics, being a MP or Adun whatever and so on for 40 years. It it will not happen. The change will not happen when the same person has been there for

So, yes, I just think term limits. Yeah. Term limit? Yeah, that's a good idea. Age age limit, you know, beyond certain age. Why why the civil servant are made to retire at whatever age that they retire. Why the judges have to be have to be retired at 66, you know? So, they got to be, you know, then

Even the party cannot run for election anymore. He can't. You I don't think he should. He's only 100 years old. I mean, they did that. They did They did the two term limit as a scam for the rakyat to make them too happy. Post two term.

Yeah, but there's no age limit. No, but two term I mean to me actually two term limit for the Prime Minister is more than sufficient. You're talking about five five 10 years. You cannot do you cannot achieve change in that amount of time. You're no good.

You get out. But what do you think is a one term of six years? Some MPs has been representing their constituency for like five six times. Six terms. I I think even if you look at MPs probably I would go not more than four terms.

So maybe Rafizi can put that on his agenda. Say something. Say something specific. Say something. Yeah, you have to say something specific. We will limit the term of the members of parliament to two terms. Say something.

Same old faces appear keep appearing in parliament. Same faces appearing in cabinet, you know. Yeah, yeah, you get fed up. The youngsters are fed up of this. You know, you you you can't blame them because they say it's the same old faces keep appearing. So when is the time for the youngsters to come up? You know, that's why the youngsters of today they don't like politics. You talk to them about politics, they don't like it.

It's a waste of my time. About 2008, which is 18 years ago. Ummi Hafilda, you know Ummi Hafilda? Mhm. Ummi Hafilda made a made a comment in one of those one of those gatherings in those days. She said at that time the leaders that we have today have been around since she was in bangku sekolah in school, you know.

Mhm. 18 years ago. Today what she said is still relevant 18 years later. Let me let me wrap it up in this way. I'm going to have another episode actually, yeah. Where I think uh one of the biggest problem that we face as a political system in Malaysia is this uh um uh is this this this this ideology of uh uh that the Malays um uh need to be united uh and Malays and Muslims need to be united. I think it's a dangerous idea. Um I'm going to have a discussion on that with Professor Tajuddin Rasdi. Uh and we're going to do that in Malay. So, you guys are welcome to join us on that particular

uh episode. Yeah, because I think this is where we need change in the country. Because we need to be thinking as Malaysians first. Yeah. Every one of us. All right? And that's that's part of the cultural and political change, you know? Okay, thank you so much. We'll

Thank you. Dr. Rusli, thanks for coming. Thank you. Thanks again. Bye-bye. See you guys again.