Preachers of Hate – a Not Uniquely Malaysian Phenomena

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Guy Shot podcast. I'm your host, Shamsul Sam, and right back with me is Syed Akbar, my good friend and partner. Morning.

Today, Guy Shot is going to go, as usual, where no one else wants to go. I think we need to put perspectives into this issue. Our Our issue here today that we want to have a serious conversation on is the so-called preachers of hate. It is a very disturbing phenomena. While this is not uniquely Malaysian, but there is a uniqueness to the Malaysian situation, as well. So, I think Syed, there are a number of incidences, and not just incidences, but uh also issues that has come up in our public discourse, social media, and even wrapped into our political discussion. Um the

what I would uh contend as uh uh preachers and preaching of hate and sowing discord within our Malaysian community. Syed, can you take that uh and let's let's embark on this uh Yeah, it's uh issue. It's sad, but uh in our country, multi-cultural, multi-racial country, multi-religious, multi-lingual, we are multi in so many ways. Unfortunately, we have these uh people Mhm. uh basically, who are opportunists. And uh I prefer the word that you use, uh sowing discord. Of course, discord also has an element of hate in it, definitely. But, uh we have to look at the intention. I

think some of these people who are doing this, they have no real intention of causing hatred, you know. They have an agenda. Mhm. Something to benefit them. So, uh using this code, especially uh religious issues. The three the two hours, religious issues, racial issues, they look at it as uh of of of some benefit to them without really even caring about the real substance of the matter. I give you an example, uh We have had uh well, religious discourse are the ones that are quite popular all the time, uh. So, you see that people kicking up a fuss about something to do with a religion or other.

And uh let's not beat around the bush. I'm talking about Islam, uh. That those are the the loudest complaints. The the sowing of discord and stuff. There have been issues, uh, where something religious, something Islamic or related to Islam cropped up. Or other, somebody made it crop up, uh. Sometimes it is a non-issue, you know. There are really not any no no real substance, but they play it up, uh. Okay, who plays it up? Is it the religious people who play it up? Now, if the religious people play out religious issues, you can attribute, okay, la. Uh a religious angle, maybe a

theological angle, maybe this they heard something they didn't like it from from a really religious perspective, a theology perspective. Therefore, they want to speak out against it. They want to correct it, whatever. And in the process, they use harsh language, they get emotional. Fine, okay, yeah. So, that's religious people, uh. Then you have the politicians coming in. Mhm.

Since when did did they become religious experts? Yeah. The the To me, the funniest joke was that the writing on the in that stocking in the socks stockings, uh. Yeah. It took a while for me to uh find out that it's it was not Arabic script, now. It was regular uh, alphabetical Roman script. Right. And then about these some ham sandwiches and things like that. The people who played it up were politicians. They They have no idea about religion. But they started playing up the religious angle. And then you also have the NGOs, certain NGOs that are associated with uh, Malay

groups or with religious groups, religious Islam, uh, most Islamic NGOs. Again, who also come into the picture. So, what are they? Are they theologians who have taken genuine uh, what do you call this? The genuine not insult. They have taken the the the the concern, uh. They have a genuine concern that a religious issue has been misrepresented or wrongly uh, discussed and has been corrected, uh. So, they have a theological perspective. Or are they politicians, uh, looking for votes? Or are they some other in-between groups? So, the point I'm trying to make is that

sometimes these are often these are non-issues. But But the people who played up, they played up for their benefit. And the people who played up may not be religious people. They can be the politicians, some NGOs, could be anyone. Somebody who has some society behind them, some consumer association behind them that that uses the Islamic label, uh. Therefore, they speak up about these issues to boost their own image. It may not really be an issue. So, this is what When you say so in this court, yes, so So, let's get back to my point. Uh, bottom line is these people may not

really be preachers of hate, you know, they're not. But they're they're sick, very sick opportunists. That's what they are. My my my my first thought when you went that way um, is actually they are salesmen. Okay? Whether they are salesmen in politics or they are salesmen using religion. Uh these guys are mainly trying to sell you something. Uh and the way they sell you something is uh is using the emotion of religion. Um and um and that's their their main characteristics. And I think um And I want to explain why they are able to do that. Yes, go ahead. Yeah. Maybe I'll stand out in this way.

We have an asymmetry in terms of uh the religious uh situation in Malaysia. Okay? Where um uh one religion is untouchable from any kind of uh what do you call uh uh uh commentary that is that can be deemed as criticism. Okay? Whilst others are allowed to be um uh insulted and abused and whatever. And that creates a very much an imbalance and an unfairness in terms of uh freedom of speech. And that allows these sales people who are actually penunggang ugama as one of the um one of the way they've been described.

They're they're just opportunists. They are opportunists. They're not theologians. Yeah. And and even if you are theologian, if you ask me any theologian should be able to engage in um in a critical debate. You know? So, anyway, go on on your

So, why why they are able to do this with some uh thing we mentioned the word impunity. Yeah. And it keeps repeating again and again non-stop. Why can't somebody stop them? Again, this is because of what you just said, you know. It is how the religious discourse is structured in our country. We don't have freedom of discourse, freedom of discussion as far as religion is concerned. Unless you are a politician or you're a loudmouth person with some backing or support behind you or you have some strong cables to, you know, people in authority, in power, political power,

then you can say anything you want. But for the regular layman like you and me, we cannot simply talk anything about religion in public, you know. Like this our podcast here. We can't simply go and say something which touches on theological aspect because we don't have this thing called a a certificate certificate

We are not certified. All righty. So religion is the way religion is structured in the country, it is regulated, monitored, and it is franchised. So only those who have the franchise to speak about religion, they need not be molested by the law, by the religious authorities. People like you and me, if we say something that touches on what they what they can decide what you call this religious issues issues on religion that touch on sensitivity

faith, belief, what is called aqidah and all that, then they can come down on you, they can try to stop you, they can take action against you. Or usually what happens is that somebody I mean, you and I can have a discussion about religion in this podcast and if we say something that somebody does not like, some fellow can go and make a report about us either in a police station or he can go to some religious department and file a report and say that I heard these two guys talking in this podcast. They said this about religion and I disagree. I think it is whatever la. It is insulting the

religion. It is incorrect. It is it it can lead to deviation. Whatever, you know. So, they can file a report and then we can get it investigated and if they deem that we have breached these kind of rules, we can be in trouble la, legal trouble. So, that's how religion is structured in this country. The discourse on religion is controlled and it is it is very subjective. What do you mean by this? Do you do you have a certificate la? I can assure you 99% of the people who talk about religion in the public domain, not only do they do not have a certificate, they don't know they don't

know much about religion la. But they can pronounce anything and everything as they want and we don't see action taken against all these people la, especially the politicians. They always are bringing up religious issues and all that, but they can speak almost like they can speak freely because maybe because they're politicians la. They are given that uh you know, that that space. That that that that that power of impunity. Which we which we may not have la. So, this is the this is the problem. So, because of the way the religion is structured, the religious discourse is

structured, the way religious discourse can be criminalized. Yes. It is a criminal act under various they call it the Sharia penal enactments la. If you say something about religion without a certification and it is not to the liking of the religious orthodoxy or whatever, then you can be criminalized. Criminalized means you can be sent to jail. You can be fined. You can be whipped with the rattan, you know, and sent to jail. It's 3 5 6, isn't it? 3 years jail, 5,000 ringgit fine and six strokes of the rattan. You can be a criminal act. Just talking about religion. In Malaysia, we have these

laws. So, there are people who are aware of this and they can take advantage because if they are immune for various reasons, or political reasons, who they are, whatever, they are sort of immune from they know that they can get away. So, or they know that they will not be legally held responsible, so they will speak louder and say wild things, huh? Which you and I if we say the same things, we could get into trouble. Bottom line is, it comes to the subject that that we are discussing today, this hatred and sowing discord, huh? As I said,

not be in their intention to go and cause hatred. These are opportunity opportunists. But I think the the the it's while you may say I that they may not intend, but the motivation of sowing such kind of hatred is a real motivation. A wrong is a wrong, a wrong is a wrong. Yeah, correct. Regardless of whether the guy had motivation or no motivation, I mean, if you throw a stone and break your neighbor's window, you cannot say I was actually exercising my my arm or my playing ball with my grandson. You can't use that kind of excuse, you see. You cause the damage, you're liable for it.

I I I I mean, to me, this kind of law that we have is not only draconian, but also it is medieval. I mean, let's put it this way. We are in the 21st century. Malaysia claims to be a

what do you call an advanced nation, a trading nation, and yet we have these medieval acts where uh public discourse are regulated because of sensitivities, because of people are not smart enough to actually be able to think for themselves, and therefore has to be controlled. Yeah? You know, you know, guys in the in in in the market of ideas you should be able to ask anything. That's why I I I'm I'm a free speech absolutist. I really don't care. You know, I think a religion should be able to withstand whatever criticism, especially if you believe such religion is true.

You know, so that's that's my my game bit. Let me I like to I like to get to the the heart of the matter, the crux, the red button, the one that you press and it blows everything up, huh? Let me get straight to the point, the way I I look at it, huh? We have this class of people now who their career their I mean their profession now is getting kicked out. They get kicked out, huh? I'm referring to politicians. Okay.

Since 2008, the politicians are getting kicked out. Yeah. For for this 2026, right? 18 years now, if you're a politician, your career is highly risky, yeah? And not only can you get do you get kicked out or you get kicked out, but those who get kicked out often they end up going to the court to answer various things that they have done when they were in power because when the new guys take over they seem to go after the old guys, you know? This is happening in our country now, huh? So, the politics has become a very risky profession, the guys who are who are now in power, I

don't think they will last in the next election. So, politics is now has become the profession of getting kicked out or getting your ass kicked, huh? So, there are many reasons why the politicians are getting kicked out. Now, I I spend time on the social media and I keep track of, you know, discussions on social media, especially among young people. And you know, issues like what we're discussing discussing now, this religious issues where there's discord, disagreement, or certain some controversial issues, religious issues, all linked to religion. You find that

people do discuss these things in the social media. And social media, you have a lot of these religious experts who are who stars and all that. They come and give their opinions. And you must read the comments. The comments

Yes. Tell me The comments are unfettered because especially on certain media like, you know, this Twitter and all these kind of things. Right. Where basically people say what they want to say. You it's difficult to you can't stop people. Of course, you can Of course, you can nothing else better to do and you're the government, you can go and can go and track them down, but that's a waste of time. People do speak. And I see that nowadays a lot of people, especially young, they are not happy with the religious this religious personalities and all these people who opinionate

who who, you know, who pass judgments and opinions on others based on religion. You I find that they they get a lot of negative comments from the young people or from everyone, actually, but mostly from the young people. They don't like these guys. They still always like make fun of them. They criticize them because they can. In social media, if you're on Twitter, Instagram, and all that, you you know that, you know, you can you can say whatever you want.

Yeah. So, they feel freer. That's where you see that their real feelings come on. And sometimes often they they they do not like. Mhm. So, these politicians they're confused. They think that by playing up these silly issues on religion, that they're going to win back the Malay vote, the Muslim vote. Actually, the Malay vote and the Muslim vote does not like this kind of behavior. They don't like it, too. That's an interesting observation.

you if you read all the comments, and some of them they really make fun and they don't like it. There's a lot of disagreement. But the only thing is the only problem is actually also is that the inflammatory one are the one that get highlighted. The commentaries does not get highlighted.

No, what I'm saying is the comments in the social media are from real people who are who are really participating in the dialogue. Because you see from 2008 these people have been losing their jobs. They lost the majority in 2008. 2018 they got kicked out of government. The government changed. 2022 was a hung parliament. And the recent state elections here, there, everywhere. They all getting their butts kicked, you know. And the the the electorate that they are hoping for, those parties, Malay based parties, that are hoping for Malay Muslim votes, they're not getting it.

So so but haven't they been playing up religious issues the last what, 30, 40, 50 years? It's been forever. It's been forever playing up religious issues, religious sentiment, playing up racial issues has been the the modus operandi for decades. And they have lost power. They have lost popularity. They have lost those Malay based parties have lost the Malay vote. Even the religious party, they they have not won the majority yet. They have not won the elections yet. They Some people say that what they have now about 40 seats is like it's a ceiling. Yeah, that's it. They can't really go beyond

that. So they are not able to win convincing majority or win power on their own by pandering to these kinds of emotional issues and playing up people's passions, you know, like all these religious things, you know, when it doesn't exist. But the point I'm trying to make is that even if it exists, even if there are valid religious issues that they can play up, a lot of people don't like this. They they don't they don't like that you are using this, you know, to sensitive issues, religious religious sensitivities, whipping up emotions, sowing discord, as you said,

whipping up emotions and passions in our country because everybody has friends, neighbors, relatives who are, you know, from a different race, different religion. We live in a, you know, very multicultural and mixed-up society where every day, every day when you wake up in the morning, they step out of their house, you will see all the other Malaysians and we all live in peace. Everybody goes on their business. I was at a mamak this morning having my breakfast. It's a mixed bunch. People are just, you know, going about their business. That's it, going about their lives. The

country is peaceful. So, and then they suddenly open up their their smartphones and their social media and then they read that this guy is saying this about this religious issue and saying that those people are out to get us or they don't respect us and playing up all these issues. Sowing discord. People, I think they they look they read it but they they may not not all of them like these kind of things. So, to the politicians now who think that by playing up these kind of issues they're going to win the votes, no, I think you you lost. I think you lost the votes

because of issues like this. The Malaysian voters, the Malaysian public, especially the younger generation, they are more aware now. They are more mature now. There is what do you call this? There's a common denominator because of the social media. There is a common denominator among young people all around the world, you know. They all have a certain kind of wavelength which is similar and playing out all these ridiculous issues and useless issues and trying to, you know, what do you call this? What do you say that ride on the horse? Yeah, all this menunggang kind of behavior.

It doesn't cut any ice with many people nowadays. So, I think the message here is that the the topic that we're talking, at, I want to address this to the politicians. You lose the votes because you talk about things like this. Not just you lose the vote because you talk about things like this. Your own supporters, the Malays and the Muslims, not all of them will support you in this. They are They are I'm not saying that they are not they are no there aren't any people who will support them, but I think that those numbers are getting smaller. I know that it's getting smaller because why can I

repeat? Please. 2008, they lost 2/3 majority. 2018, they got kicked out. 2022, it's a hung parliament. And the next one the next election We don't know. Nobody knows what's going to

So, they're not helping themselves. So, my advice to the politicians is if you want to win votes let's try this for a change. Don't play up the religious issue. Try to maintain the peace and try to you know make things better among the people instead of sowing discord. Try and see you might win that extra vote. That's an interesting perspective. I mean at this stage I think I I have a reminder at this stage before we continue. Hi everybody. Just a short break. If you would like to hear more of these kind of conversations and perspectives that you don't hear anywhere else,

please subscribe to Guide Shot so that we can bring more conversations like this. Like, comment, and let's get more community involved in in our Guide Shot podcast and build a movement to change for a better Malaysia. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. I I think the structural imbalance that we talked about just now irrespective for the politicians, I think politicians sometimes the problem is until they get kicked out they never learn their lesson. Okay? This is the problem that we face as a society. And the worst part is actually these preachers, so-called preachers. I

don't even call them preachers, you know? Because preachers are supposed to preach harmony and uh and and peace. Instead, when you sow discord, I think uh you know, you're not a preacher anyway. Uh yeah, but I mean, the the the idea of um that we've been talking about eliminating sedition act, blasphemy law, I think it's important for the country to move forward as well. Um and in order for us all to be able to say what we want to say, and also for others uh not to be slapped down when they counter. These guys can say whatever they want to say because they know

they cannot be criticized back. Yeah, that's the thing that they take advantage of it. This is where, as we mature as a society, this is where we are we are we are we are behind third world. Yeah. This is one aspect of our society where we are behind third world. If there's such thing as a fourth world, we are it in this blasphemy thing, huh? Okay, some we don't have blasphemy we don't call it blasphemy laws in Malaysia per se, as I mentioned, we call it the Sharia criminal what penal enactments or something. Every state has. You know, in Malaysia, let's try to educate our

viewers a little bit, huh? do that, yeah. We don't have a federal federal authority over religion. Religion is a state state authority under the under the jurisdiction of each state sultan or ruler in the states that don't have sultan, it's under the governor. It is under the state's authority. There's no such thing as a federal authority for religion, and we do not have a centralized federal constitutionally we don't have we don't have centralized federal authority that oversees religion. There's no such thing, yeah? Religion is a state matter. Now, some of these politicians and some

of these even the uh the people who are civil servants who are given responsibility over religious issues over the past years, uh they've been trying to create a centralized religious uh authority

authority, you know? They have to And one of them is uh Jakim Well, Jakim-lah. They try to But but it's not possible because the Malaysian Federal Constitution has vested all power authority over religion with the Sultans, the states. It's a state matter. So, there is no provision in the Constitution for any kind of federal uh authority over religion, uh. So, for example, we have this uh Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan. Um they they they can pass fatwa, but whatever fatwas that they that they pass, if it's going to be adopted at this throughout the country, it has to be endorsed again

by the state. Uh it has to go through the state process. It is not an automatic-lah. Which again uh upholds the view the constitutional fact that religion is a state matter. So, I think we have to uh make sure that it remains a state matter and uh that it comes under the suzerainty, the jurisdiction of the Sultans and the state authorities, uh. Uh it is best that way. Uh otherwise uh you might have you know, if you centralize something, it's easier to be abused, you know? Especially when we we do not allow freedom of discussion on religion.

Yeah. You know, you give the franchise. So, this is the this is the issue. You franchise it to a few people or to those who are connected and those who you know who can say whatever they want. Soon enough they'll realize that, "Hey, I can say whatever I want."

And they will. And they will. Yeah. I mean, the the the the the route that the route map The funny thing is actually, if you really look at it, if if we go back, they are they are multiple uh case studies of what has happened before uh by allowing such uh personalities that uses religion um to either garner support um or uh I mean, we can go through that that historical perspective, and somehow or other, our politicians seems to forget. I mean, we obviously have that one case of uh of the Indian preacher that was requested to be extradited to uh India. Until today, that has not been

done, you know? And I think that is um that speaks a lot about um where the politicians are in terms of their integrity of carrying out uh what is good for the public when it comes to religion.

the system is stacked up such that, you know, if you have regular, decent people who are professional and all that to to manage these religious affairs, religious all these religious things, that is good. But, if somebody comes along who's a politician and an opportunity, somebody with, you know, other ideas in mind, then as you as we mentioned earlier, they can abuse this easily because the system is set up that way, you know? It's like you can be almighty. Mhm. Nobody to question, you know? Mhm. So, we have to my Well, if you

have that now. If you want to If I want to wrap up on this point, uh we have to move to a to a direct You know, remember I said we are worse than third world in this aspect. To move forward, we have to decriminalize religious discourse. Yeah. We have to remove that thing about the certification and all that because the religious authorities are always there. If they see something not right, they have they can always speak up and correct whatever is wrong, you see? But to criminalize somebody from even beginning to talk about something, I think that's not the right way. You got

to let people speak. And you you don't you do not criminalize religious views even if you say something that's different, that is not accepted, that is, you know, way off. It doesn't matter. That's his view. It is up to you if you are the the people, you know, with with the theologians and you have the religious knowledge with you. It is up to you to convince people to listen to you. After all, Islam it shows the right way. So, you have to be able to convince people to the right way instead of saying you you you say one wrong thing, I'm going to throw you in jail. And you

determine what is right and what is wrong. Who are you? Are you God? Uh so, this is this uh this is where we have to change this old old old laws. I want to I want to just say two other things which you already mentioned. I want to talk about this foreign preachers who have been we have hosted them. And I want to say a little bit a little bit about Singapore. You mentioned the Indian guy. You see, that's the other thing. In this country, for some reason, again it's the politicians, they have always played host to some of these characters from outside the country who have

issues in their own country. Yeah. You see, there's this guy called Abu Bakar Bashir. I think a lot of people know him. He was the he still was the leader of the Jemaah Islamiyah in Indonesia. And he was jailed because he was he was connected to the Bali bombing. The terrorist attack in Bali that killed I think about a couple hundred people, tourists. He was jailed. I think he's been released. Now, he spent some time in jail. But this guy, once he was in Malaysia, he spent about 14 15 years in Malaysia because it was during the time of Suharto, President Suharto. So, they

were the President Suharto, that government maybe wanted to arrest him and throw him in jail or something. So, he he sort of escaped to Malaysia. And he was given I mean, they allowed him in here and he was basically I mean, afforded some hospitality by our people. And he stayed here for about 14, 15 years. And he ended up setting up one of those madrasahs in Johor in Ulu Tiram, the famous Ulu Tiram what is called a Luqman or something. I forget the name lah. Which later came to be identified as a center for extremist propaganda and training in the religious religious extremism lah.

So, and then I think it has been shut down a long time ago. But we we we we welcomed this guy here and we housed him here and we even let him carry on with his activities. And then later when things became bad, you know, you we our boys our security boys had to go in and shut the place down and then, you know, arrest all those people or re-educate them, counsel them, all kinds of things. In Malay, it's called kerja dua kali lima.

Using doing useless work. Yeah. Useless work, you know. Yeah. The other fellow who was given refuge in Malaysia was the leader of the Moro people in the southern Philippines, huh? Nur Misuari, yeah? The famous Nur Nur Misuari. Yeah. He was here for a while, but then they extradited him. I think he was arrested and sent back to Philippines or something. But he did have his For a while, he did have his supporters here in the in the government, you see? So, people do allow them in. Why do we do this? So, this is where I want to come to Singapore. In Singapore, they are extremely

careful. Not only about their own preachers and those who who sow discord and, you know, try to whip up emotions and passions. They're very careful who they allow into the country, foreigners, foreign preachers especially, yeah? In Singapore, they have a few outfits, like this Yusuf Ishak Institute. I think they have ICS or something like that. And a couple other outfits which are very academic in nature. And they they are constantly studying, analyzing, and keeping track of uh religious movements, jihadi outfits, Islamist organizations in Southeast Asia

and in Asia and also the world. But they focus on Southeast Asia and they're constantly writing books, papers. They have seminars, conferences. I've attended a few and I know these people and I know of these people and I've met the well, couple of them. And you know how in Singapore they work is that they act as inputs. When the Singapore government wants to assess threats, security threats, and extremism, Islamic extremism, or jihadis, or whatever, they will consult these people. And these people will give their inputs, you know. So I I know I heard from one of them, a PhD guy who is

in one of these institutes. So he said that they will from time to time they will ask them about this preacher, that preacher, who's who's famous and well-known outside the country and they want to come to Singapore, right? So they asked them to give a they asked them for an assessment. What do you think of this guy? So they will write their comments. So by doing thus, they have been able to keep out people who they know will be trouble will be trouble causes. So they are able to keep other people. We don't do that. We don't do that. We go like like our one of the former prime

ministers who's now in jail, you know, sadly. Uh he the preacher guy that you spoke about, he edited him lavishly. Wherever he went, he gave him a limousine with police outrider with sirens blaring and all that for him to arrive to give his speeches and ceramah and all that. And of course the prime minister was also there, all to get the votes. And what happened to him? 2018

Boom. That's it. Yeah. So the politicians like I hope they're listening. Listen carefully. Yeah. Najib Razak is a maximum example. He thought by doing all this he was going to win the elections. What happened to him? He's in jail. The the point I'm trying to make is this religion doesn't work. Yeah. All this sowing discord kind of thing

That's not work. doesn't work. People, if you want the votes uh You fix the pothole, you fix the economy, you fix the job market, and you improve the education. Those are real things. That will work. You will get the votes. You start playing with these silly things like religious issues and you know all these emotive issues, you lose elections. I I I think we've come to a point in this country if you ask me that um I would rather see no more religious talk uh in the public sphere to be honest with you. Or any preachers. Well, not the reason What? He's I mean it's it's a free country.

Yeah, I I know. It's a free country. You have the right to say what I might you have to let them speak say what they want to say. but I want to say what I want Correct. That's it. This is where I'm coming from. have the freedom only for them. Correct. I want the freedom, too. If you're going to allow them to have the freedom to say whatever they want to say, I should have the freedom to actually say back and without impunity as well. For clarity, I means the public. Yeah, because why? Yeah, I is the public. The public, the ordinary people should be able to freely say what they

want to say. It cannot just be politicians or their cronies or their pet people that they they they can they can show up and and and and and lavishly say, "Okay, this is I'm championing the religion, you know?" They're pet foreign religious expert. Yeah. Who's got warrant of arrest.

Or pet pet Non-Malay converts, you know? That one more popular. Because why? They say, "Oh, they've seen the light." You know? I tell you guys what, uh If you really allow unfettered conversations, okay? Without criminalizing, then you can talk about your religion being uh uh uh being uh being superior or being better. Because why? You allow it to be at a fair basis with everybody else.

Yeah, you allow a discussion, questioning, critique. You can take You can take anything. Because you're not afraid. Yeah. And because you have truth on your side. Correct. But But when you don't have truth on your side, you shut people up.

That I mean I'm sorry. They seem to be shy, they're very shy of discussion sorry? Say la, let people say whatever they want to say la. the thing. So this is the problem. This is the problem. If you want to you want to if you if you want to have the ability to to speak about religion, you open it up and let everybody speak without criminalizing it. That's it. If something is not right, you just tell them, "This is my view." So that you can correct the other person, the other person can learn from you, or you can learn from the other person. Yeah. See? There you go.

So, I think that's our final word for the day with respect to this uh uh sowing of discord from this uh I call it hate preachers la.

I hope to see you all again. Subscribe and like. Put a Put your comments in so that, you know, we can have a conversation keep going among a larger and larger community. Thank you so much, say. Thank you. Thank you very much. All righty.