Ft Syed Akbar Ali (OutSyed the Box) Pastor Koh & Amri Che Mat – High Court Lays Down the Law

Welcome back ladies and gentlemen. I'm your host Shamsul. We are gutshot back again with our regular guest and uh partner my good friend say Akbali.

Good morning. Today we are going to be uh having a conversation on u something a lot more serious than usual. uh and uh it's uh and we're going to deep dive on this topic uh which is uh the recent high court decision on the disappearance and force abduction of uh pastor co and Amri chairman. Yeah. Um this uh uh extrajudicial abduction of the individuals uh is a very black day in the history of Malaysia. I think uh with that I want to go straight to say and uh say can you open up on the subject for us?

Yeah thank you. Thank you. It's a very sensitive uh topic, very touchy. But uh first of all, I'd like to express uh sympathies to the family of uh pastor co and Amri Jana uh on this uh unfortunate uh uh event that has happened in our country. It was something that should never have happened but it uh it has. Um this thing happened uh in uh 2016 201 that's uh five governments ago.

Five governments ago. Yeah. It is not uh it is not the doing or the uh any kind of uh uh liability on this present government because this happened uh in 2016 201. uh but it has taken this long for the high court to come out with a decision and court decisions are legally binding and in this case we have to look at the decision what the the court actually decided what the judge actually said. So it is now binding it is by law it is binding on the government on the police and whoever is involved. So this is a a sea change from what happened before because if you recall uh after this uh

incident happened especially the abduction of pastor co um it was done in broad daylight and there was CCTV recording of his abduction. Yes, which went viral. He was abducted in 207 February I think and within a short time that CCTV recording went uh viral and the case you know it really um everybody was talking about it and then which led to a uh our human rights commission Sua Kam

right uh convening an inquest an inquiry which they did and they completed uh their inquiry I believe uh 219 or something 2019 or something and they came out with their report. But sadly um well that's the nature of of uh things. So Hakam uh does not have legal standing in the sense that their decisions are not legally binding on anyone. It's just a human rights commission. So sadly nothing much came out of the suakam inquiry. V is a v solving this issue because until today pastor co and amri chmat are still they're missing they're missing u there was another uh task

force appointed to also study this this matter. The task force also came out with their report. There was a government task force but the report was uh classified as confidential. It was not released to anyone especially it was not released to the family of the victims who are also victims. Uh unfortunately the family uh of the disappeared people had to go to court to get their hands on the report of the special task force and the court decided in their favor in August 2024 which is last year. Following which the that report by the special task force I believe was was was an input into the

legal case taken up by the family of uh pastor co and am which has led to this high court decision. So the high court has ruled now uh the judge dust suangju. Yes.

Basically he has said that the main points he has said that the government and police are liable for the abduction disappearance of Raymond Co and Amri Jm. Uh he also said that uh this is this is uh interesting or this is critical. He said that the abductions were found to involve one or more serving or former police officers acting in an organized unit or state capacity. I'm reading a media reports from uh channel news Asia which was reported and uh the court awarded compensation for both the family of uh pastor co and am the total amount is uh adds up to 40 million ringit

and uh the judge said something else which is uh which is um uh very relevant and uh it's uh out outstanding in the sense that he has awarded compensation of 10,000 ringit per day per day for every single day that pastor co is not a return to his family.

So so this is running at 10,000 ringit a day. The court decision was on 5th of uh November. Today is the 12th. Yeah. So that's uh

70 or 80,000 ringit already and it's piling up at 10,000 ringit a day you know. So this is a the judge has now his decision has now created another loose end a very expensive loose end which is born by the government

born by the taxpayers at the rate of 10,000 ringit a day born by by the taxpayer. Yeah. So this is uh this is a huge u uh uh burden on all of us but more importantly it is a huge task now being born uh being put on the government's shoulders because the longer this thing is not resolved uh the clock is running at 10,000 ringgit a day uh it is going to become a source of uh huge embarrassment if this this matter is not resolved. which is that uh pastor co

be returned to his family. Be returned to his family means in whatever condition that he is uh found whether he is you know proof of life or he's alive or he's not alive that we do not know but he has to be returned to the family. So this is what uh the decision of the court has now uh hoisted upon the government. Uh and the government is today's government. Although this thing happened five governments ago, it is a present government which carries this new ruling by the court and they are bound by it.

Uh I'm happy to have uh heard the I'm happy with the statement made by the minister of home affairs today uh YB Safoodi Nasuton. I think he made a quite a positive statement in the media. He I heard him speaking and he said that he will he he did say that this is a legacy issue which has which he has inherited from you know previous governments. He was he was not the minister of home affairs when these things happen but he has inherited this is a legacy issue but he has said uh he said it publicly that uh the ministry of home affairs will act as per the court's

uh decision. So I think that was a good statement, a positive statement. Uh he will act on the high court decision and uh return pastor co to his family and I think that also will include uh the case of Amrichman. So that is a positive positive statement

and uh I hope they will carry through ASAP. M I just want a a point of quick point of clarification right I mean they're just uh for uh those who who don't I mean pastor co is obviously Christian uh in our Muslim Sunni majority country uh Amri on the other hand is u um

is apparently a a Shia Muslim right so that puts the religious penis as well with respect to this disappearance. That is very disconcerting for all Malaysians. Um I yeah I I I repeat your condolences to the family, you know. It's

our sympathies. Yeah. Yeah. And our sympathies on um on the on on on on their missing their their you know their husband their father. I mean this is something in a democratic country that should never ever have happened you know and uh going by the uh judiciary decision that this is a state action um this is legal you know this is something that the the the the court itself has made a dis a conclusion upon that this is um something that the government now must put right because of the be its five government ago the government of the day must put this right and this should never happen

again. Um so I mean the home minister has said that he is going to implement this decision. Um but before I go there, you know, um why do you think this uh abduction uh you know why

why it happened? Why it happened? Why why why this can never happen again? If we look at this situation now with this court decision, how do we make sure how does this not happen again? There there are a couple of uh reasons that I can surmise you know why why this thing happened. There have been suggestions that rogue elements you know were involved uh behind this this incident rogue elements in whichever arm of the government that did this um 9 years 9 years ago. But I think it is uh it's not just a case of of a rogue elements. You know there's a saying um you can fool some people all

the time all all the time. You can fool all the people some of the time but you cannot fool all the people all the time. Uh this was a case of uh you can fool all the people some of the time but this was a case of uh a system a system any system a system the entire system can go wrong some of the time. Uh some part of the system can go wrong all the time like some trains that don't run too well and uh or some aspects of uh religious administration. Huh? But the entire system cannot go wrong all the time.

Yeah. But here is is I think it's like the system went down for a little part of the time. This is what happened. It is not just rogue elements but there seems to be a systemic breakdown in what happened. Why did it happen? I this is speculation but from the religious point of view since you raised the religious angle um some people do have strong feelings about uh religious um well what they believe as religious uh law or religious ruling whereby you know uh for example it is illegal for Muslims to change their religion in this country. If you change your religion

from Islam to another religion, it is uh technically it is illegal. You can be you can be jailed. You can be punished. And uh it is also uh not allowed for non-Muslims to preach their religion to Muslims. So you cannot if you are a Christian or a Buddhist or a Hindu or any other religion uh it is against the law I think for you to preach your religion to Muslims and convert them that is not allowed. So in the case of uh pastor co there was there was this there was talkuh in the social media and people were talking about it that he was a Christian pastor that perhaps his

church was involved in uh uh in in activity that uh reached out to Muslims you know this is debatable this is debatable is arguable but I think that was appealing at the time and then in the case of Amri Chetmat he was or he was said to be a Shia Again the Shia faith is not recognized by the majority Muslim

uh uh religious authority authority that we have in this country which is the Sunni Suna. Yeah. So somebody didn't didn't uh somebody disliked the activities of these two people uh to the extent that they were able to influence this this uh or or or this course of action came out out of arose out of that kind of dislike and uh feeling of uh um you know insecurity that these people were threatening the entire structure of uh religion in this country, Islamic religion. There was a feeling that maybe these people were a threat. Unfortunately, they thought that uh the

solution would be this this uh to disappear this abduction. Yes. Uh I so this is what we can surmise. You know, this is not proven in a court of law, but I think this is what everybody was talking talking about and they're still talking about it. So, it happened. All right. it happened and then of course it is a wrong thing uh to have uh been done by anyone and today we have a court uh decision. So the court decision basically has uh brought us back to the rule of law because what has happened the abduction and disappearance of uh these people uh was outside the rule of

law. It basically became uh you know what they call uh frontier justice. Yep. Cowboy justice uh extrajudicial extrajudicial uh abduction and all that. It was outside the system of law of the country. So this high court decision to me and for all Malaysians is extremely important because it establishes that our country still is a it's it's a country that is ruled by law. We have law and order in this country. We can't just go around doing this wild stuff on your own and then expect that you know you will not be held accountable.

And when it happened, it was a major dent a major uh a huge dent and a damage to our system of law and order in the country. So I'm very glad that this the high court has ruled made this decision. Now it puts us back as a proper we are a civilized country. you know we we have uh civilized behavior.

Yeah. And so this this is this is critical to me. This this high court decision is absolutely critical. We are back on track and I hope I feel that uh this thing should not should not happen again in this country. it should not

you you know just uh to add to that point actually I mean I've been what probably coming to more than uh 35 years plus uh uh in in in business and more than half of that actually I do uh reach out and and and do business with international uh markets right and one of the things that actually make Malaysia here very uh attractive and special in b in in practically uh this region is because we are quite recognized as having a uh a country uh with very strong rule of law. We are civilized. We have a structure. We are very systematic. I mean we what we adopted as part of the commonwealth. Uh

I think we stand out uh with Singapore as being a very uh rule of law based nation. It's a it's a not just a point of pride as a Malaysian but also a point of pride as a businessman when I talk to uh uh investors and uh I talk to my business partners and they know and that's why we get investments right. So but from the point of view of us as citizens as you rightly put you cannot have this going on at all. I mean this is uh this is not just one too many this is just two too many. Um uh even when we compare to like Argentina which in the 70s and 80s had like what

30,000 people go missing because they were against the government of some sort, you know. Um this is something we cannot have ever in this country. This is uh well I'm a bit impassionate about this as you can see you know. Um and um so uh how do you think this will impact uh sentiments of uh voters sentiments? I mean putting aside not not really putting aside I mean yes it's the family is so deeply affected and we we sympathize with them and actually we really to be honest I feel like you cry with them you know but the vote but us as citizens and for voters right we we

need to have this nip in the butt not just from never happening again. But systemically, I think the government of the day and anybody who wants to hold government must show to the people that this will never ever happen again.

I'm I'm I'm glad that you mentioned Argentina because Argentina is famous, very famous. I think that was during the dictatorship of the military in the 70s and 80s in Argentina. And yes, they had this uh this massive uh uh cases of people being abducted and basically they were they were disappeared. They never found alive again.

Many of the cases uh were not resolved until today. And not only Argentina, these are the tyrannical regimes, you know, the dictatorships and all that who somehow feel that the sun will never set on their power. uh Argentina is was not the only one. Today the same thing is happening in um in Pakistan for example where you have this insurgencies you know the Baluchistan people and all that and uh it is a fairly regular occurrence that people disappear these insurgents or rebels or people who are deemed to be opposed to the government. They abducted in the middle of the night and then they are

found shot and murdered and discarded by the roadside. These things are happening. So this is the behavior of uh tyrannical regimes where people think that they can get away with wrongdoing. The regime the authorities who are in power. This is this behavior is characteristic of an attitude that we are invincible. You know we will not be held accountable. Uh interesting that you you raised a question about the votersh because uh uh this the abduction happened in uh 2016 and 2017 and uh it became uh it became a controversy. I think within a few months the entire country was talking about it

that CCTV recording of pastor co abduction it went it went viral viral everybody I think millions of people saw that you know and uh that was in 2018 we had that election where the government lost.

Yes. uh on May the 9th the government of 61 years or 63 years lost was they lost political power for the first time and uh that was a major earthquake major earthquake and uh 3 days after the outcome of that election on May the 12th 2018 one of the the police officers who was involved in this in this case Uh I think he broke he panicked and he went to see the wife of Amri Chetm. This has come out in the in the Soakam hearing as well as in the in the court case. And he sort of uh told her what has happened to her husband and he gave a lot of information which was presented

I think in the Suakam inquiry and also in the court. So the basically the police guy panicked because the political power had changed. You know the government had lost their their uh the election and a new government had come in and uh so they panicked and true enough the new government that came in under Dr. Mahade they are the ones who sort of gave the green light for the suakam inquiry and also the task force but unfortunately uh it didn't go much beyond that but until until now until the decision by the by the high court so now it is a formal legal decision by the

high court which has to be upheld under law which has to be obeyed by all parties who are involved largely government and the police. So uh it has taken years but nevertheless uh we have come to this we have come this far proving that we are not Argentina. We're not we're not really not we are not Argentina. We're not Argentina. We're not Pakistan. We are Malaysia.

We are a democracy. We have law order. We have systems in place. Uh we are a we are a decent society. We we don't we don't condone these kind of things. Which is why now this this is attracting so much negative attention. for those who were involved in it, the perpetrators. So now I suppose they have to cover their faces. But uh importantly I I hope it will not happen again. I I have a feeling that it will not happen again because the whole country basically was upset about this and uh let me reiterate yes the government lost the elections in 2018. This was not the

sole reason. There were other things going on. I think the government would have lost anyway. But I uh I have no doubts that this event which happened the abduction of Amri Jetmar and Pastor Co uh 2017 post pastor co and then and then the election was following year. I seriously believe that there was a lot of bitterness in the community at the time. It is not just non-Muslims who were upset with this what happened. I think even Muslims and Malays many of them didn't like I didn't like it. I'm sure you didn't like it. Oh, I I was really upset about it.

So So you see decent people, people who are decent, who have some sense of morality, we will not accept all this. So I I think it this also contributed to the huge loss that the government suffered in 2018. Meaning what you said just now,

you behave like this, it cost you votes because we are a democracy. As I said, we are not Argentina. Well, let me put it very clearly. Actually, for the first time, I voted the other way. So all this adds up you know and then you see okay uh the new government took over Dr. Mahade became prime minister and the the uh commission human rights commission's inquiry suakam's inquiry was started and then they came out with a report and the special task force was set up and they came out with a report that went on into 219 220 I think then nothing was nothing was uh was done of course Dr. Mahade was

replaced and two other prime ministers came up and 2022 again the government it was you know they lost the elections basically everybody lost the elections there nobody won hung parliament again I think issues like this were overhanging people were not happy you know why can't we resolve issues like this why is it still dragging until today it's still dragging the story is not over yet we're going to discuss this shortly sure yeah so uh I think it it had a big cost on the government in terms of votes in 2018 2017 was Pastor Co's abduction. The the whole year the story was hot. Everybody

was talking about it and 2018 they went into the general elections and they lost. Uhhuh. They would have lost. I think they would have lost but they lost big. I'm sure this event also contributed to their huge loss perhaps hundreds of thousands of votes because of this alone. So there is a political cost. You behave like this you can get kicked out because we are not Argentina. We are not Argentina. We are not Pakistan. We are not Afghanistan. We are not a Stan country. We are not a banana republic. Let's put it this way.

At least the people are not. I don't know about the I don't know about the politicians, but the general people, the people on the ground, people like you, me, everybody else. We're just normal ordinary people. We don't like all this kind of behavior and it cost them votes at the polls. That's what has happened. So, uh if they want to continue this kind of behavior or whoever is thinking of contemplating this kind of behavior, be prepared to suffer the cost. Well, you'll get kicked out. The the the um I have concerns about the implementation. I mean just to in terms

of the implementing I mean the of course the whole minister um has uh said all the right things right um that it will be uh that that the the court judgment is going to be implemented which then I I would think that I would expect the government not to appeal this decision. That's one part. The second part is um we've had another case actually before which is uh the abduction of uh uh the children of the Hindu mother which is uh Indra

Indra Gandhi uh that decision was like I don't know how many years ago uh and the police uh uh for whatever reason has not seemed to be able to return the children in accordance to the judgment of the court. So I am I'm I'm not very to say that I I'm I'm confident uh about the um uh the the implementation or of this court decision um to be carried out is another part of my concern as a citizen. Yeah, I think they should play it up, you know, but uh Indra Gandhi of course uh it's an Indian family and uh I'm talking from a political and voting point of view. They they are the minority vote but

nevertheless that case also has serious implications on whether we are a nation which observes the rule of law or not. Uh to me that is another example of the breakdown of law of the of uh of uh living by the law or or implementing the law the rule of law in this country because there were there was a court decision in that case and uh the child has not been delivered to her mother until today. Uh the mother I do not know if she sued the government. I mean just to this one sorry uh basically the abduction was carried out by the father uh who converted to Islam.

Well I I I did I do not know if it was an abduction that's that's a debatable point. Okay. But subsequent to that, subsequent to the child and the father not being uh they were not uh were able to detect where they are. Uh and the subsequent to that the court has ordered has ordered that they be produced that the police uh do their best to produce the child and return her back to her mother. Yes, that has not been done yet. So I do not know the details of the case. If the mother of Indra Gandhi took an action against the government similar to what the the

wife of Pastor Co and Amrich Chetm have done where they sued the government and also obtained uh compensation the amounts of money that has been awarded now 40 million and 10,000 ringit per day. If uh a similar um case had been taken against the government in the case of Indra Gandhi and the court had made a similar decision awarded the mother money damages on a per day basis perhaps the the case could have taken a different different cause. I I do not know

but uh you are right in the sense that that was another breakdown in the system of the country where there is a court order to produce a child and which has not been acted upon until today somebody has to be held uh

accountable accountable someone has to answer for that and if they cannot answer they have to be they have to be bear the consequence there must be some consequences I I wonder to a certain extent it's Do we have a rogue uh deep state operating within the system? You know, I mean, as what the Americans would call it, I think in every in every government at any time in in anywhere in the world, no matter how how democratic they are or how transparent they are, there will be be people in power who may decide, you know, to do things their own way or to break the law. Basically you cannot you

cannot uh 100% foolproof your system against this kind of errant or or aberration in the behavior. It happened. But the important thing now is uh this thing is behind us. Uh going forward we have to bring the case to a close you know. So uh there's still some work to be done as the minister of home affairs and safuinion has said he will uh implement what the high court has decided. As I said, the high court decision is on the was on the 5th of November, I think. So, you know, more than a week has gone by. And the court in their decision has has also instructed the government the police to

uh to keep the file open to reopen the investigation to I mean to keep the investigation moving forward and the court has ordered that the police report to the attorney general's chambers on the progress of their investigation every 60 days. 60 days. Huh? Uh if they are paying if the government is liable for 10,000 ringit a day times 60 is that 600,000 ringit. So every 60 days by the time the police makes a first report to the attorney general's chambers that's another 600,000 ringit of public funds um I don't know will they be able to solve the case in 60 days if and then

the next report is another 60 days down the road that's another 600,000 ringit 1.2 2 million ringit uh uh over 120 days. Uh so they have to expedite it otherwise uh the damages are going to keep piling up and it is taxpayers funds. It's going to become a major embarrassment for the government if this thing keeps going on unresolved. I think um on think I think the family uh the family need the return or at the very minimum a closure and that goes all along as well as far as us as a society. We cannot have a mark this dark in our history. This is not the society we grew up with. This is not the

society we want to live in. And I think that um um our government must represent the morality and the uh uh and the rule of law that we have created for our people. I think that is the message that uh you know that this whole case need to be resolved in one way or another.

Yeah, it has to. It has to. That's what I I I that's what I I I uh I feel too that uh the the decision by the high court puts us back on the right track. This is not a simple case of uh you know uh family domestic domestic conflict. U the father ran away with a child or some divorce and this and that. This is uh a major crime and uh which was where people closed their eyes and turned the other way for so many years and finally it's uh coming to a closure. I uh I I have to say something else. Uh you know about this thing. Um this was an abduction. It happened Amri Chetmat was 9 years ago and uh

Pastor Co is now 8 years. Well they happened within a few months of each other. Um I was I was a bit uh well I was not too happy to hear the uh the retort by the attorney general

when the high court made their decision. Uh the attorney general has absolute right under the law to appeal any uh decision that goes against them. Suppose if they lose a case they have the absolute right to appeal the case. That is a law. We all know that. I mean it's it's obvious.

No need to say it. Yeah. But the fact is the attorney general did make a public statement. Yeah. That you know the high court had ered you know in making this decision over this uh this case of pastor co and am which I thought was not really necessary. Uh if the a wanted to appeal the case it is his right just go ahead and appeal the case. But when he made a statement in public, um I thought it was it was um it was sort of adversarial, you know, like unfriendly because we must understand this is a case where uh husbands and fathers have disappeared. We we surely

we have to sympathize with them and their families. Their families are now the victims. The first victims were were the pastor Co and Amri Chad themselves and now the victims are the families too. They have lost their fathers and husbands surely we can sympathize uh with them. Uh you know you can argue that should the government apologize to the families? Well apologies carry legal implications. So people always, you know, the Japanese never apologized to China or Korea for invading them in the Second World War because they can carry legal liabilities. But in this case, the court

has already ruled. Yeah. And the government has to pay 40 million and at 10,000 ringit a day. The the the the government the the high court has already made the decision. It's the the horse has

run out of the barn of the barn. It's too late. You see? Yeah. Okay. At least you know um perhaps perhaps the government and and its officers can be more sympathetic towards a family because surely they have lost husbands and fathers. This is a very terrible thing that has happened to them. Nobody wants to nobody wants to suffer this kind of event in their life ever. So I hope I hope that all the parties who are concerned will be more sympathetic when they deal with this case. If if you were to ask me, I would go even one step further. I think the families owe an apology

regardless of whoever is because at the end of the day, right, the families are owed an apology are owed an apology, right? Because if we've got what as you rightly put five governments ago that this happened, right? You take the reigns of government which means that you take the reigns of the bureaucracy, the civil service which includes our military and armed forces and police forces. Okay, that are supposed to uh protect the constitution and protect the rule of law

and protect us other people, right? You know it goes to to a certain extent also you know to stop from if anything the use of uh the use of the state instruments like you know if uh you know we have this culture to a certain extent you don't like what somebody is saying uh you make a police report police knock on your door and uh you know basically it's a form of harassment and to actually make you scared of speaking out. So we cannot have this in a democracy. You know, we have to fix that through the ballot box. We have to that's are we a democracy? We have to fix that through

how we vote. Vote them out. If they keep doing this, just don't vote for them. That's it. We are a democracy. We go to the elections. That's when we get to express our likes and dislikes. I agree with what you're saying. We don't need this. We absolutely do not need this kind of behavior. We are a modern uh society. This is the 21st century. We're not living in the dark ages. We're not living in the stone age. So, we don't need this kind of caveman behavior. This caveman behavior. Yeah. We don't need this. And if they don't change, we have to kick them out. That's it. We We can't

do anything else. We are a democracy. We go to the We go to the polls, we vote, we we don't vote for them. And then we affect change in the country. Otherwise, it's not it's not going to happen. You cannot sit down and talk to some of these people and say, "Let's let me allow me to talk some sense into you." I mean, it will not work.

It doesn't work. It doesn't work. Just vote them out. That's the only way it's going to change. I I I mean uh I think sometimes um I mean this this incident the Indara Gandhi incident upsets me so much uh as a as a as a citizen and as a voter and as a taxpayer you know it's about us the people the people must come first the politics I don't give a you know you realize something you know say on this podcast we don't really talk about the political mechanations. We don't talk about political chessboards. We don't talk about politics names and whatn not. We don't care. We talk about

policies. We want to see uh good policies being made. We want to see the country become better, you know. Um and this incident, I think, needs I I I repeat it again. the word is it needs closure one way or another and it's incumbent upon the government of the day to provide that closure and in that sense I want to say this you need to apologize on behalf of the governing body that this has happened to the people of one of our people what else do you want us to to to do you can't be quiet about it. You are leading government. This has happened to us the people.

Okay. This thing this thing is uh it's not over yet. This episode is not over yet. My view is the the larger portion the closure of this case is yet to begin because this is like the beginning of the the end. And the end I think I'm I'm quite convinced the end is going to be quite uh epic. It's going to be quite explosive because you see the court has ordered the minister the government to deliver pastor co to his family at the cost of 10,000 ringit a day compensation the government must pay to the family if they do not deliver him. So

is it going to take years? Is it going to take months? that's going to build up millions and millions of ringit. So for the government of the day today which has inherited this problem from a government of the five governments ago

it is not their doing. They are not they cannot be held responsible for it. They have they have absolutely nothing to do with it. But they have inherited the problem and now there's a there's a clock running and there's there's a compensation money like a taxi meter is running at 10,000 ringit a day.

So the longer this case is not resolved then the burden builds up on today's government on this government because it's too too bad for them. They inherited this legacy as as the minister Saipurin said this is a legacy issue you know unfortunately it is hoisted upon their shoulders but if it's not resolved uh then the burden does build up on the present government so they have to resolve this they have to resolve thish so it's running at 10,000 ringit compensation a day to me the the the the bigger uh the real blow up will happen after they They are delivered. Let's say Pastor Co is found and

delivered to his family. It's it's okay. He's been missing now for 8 years. Let's be be logical about this. He may be found alive, which I I do not know. Or he may be found not alive. If he is found alive, he huge questions need to be answered. Where has he been kept alive all these years through five governments? But and if he's found not alive, it becomes a completely new ball game. He was abducted. That's what the court has ruled. Abduction is foul play.

Yeah. Foul play which have cost to him losing his life if he's not alive anymore. So that really changes the entire the the the the color and the scheme of the whole thing, you know, and you have to treat this as a criminal investigation and go after the people who are involved behind this. No, no matter where it leads, it must be resolved. That will be a bigger explosion because it could go back to a lot of avenues and alleys and whatnot which uh which is going to create a lot of embarrassment for people from our past. As we said, this is five governments ago. It's going

to create a lot of embarrassment and there could be spillover effects. So to me the the the biggest part the most explosive part of this whole episode is yet to happen. If pastor co and Amri Chhatmat are not delivered to their families the issue of the the court award is uh piling up at 10,000 ringgit a day. That will become a huge political embarrassment too. So it has to be resolved. If they are found more questions will come up. people must be held liable. So that is going to be very explosive. So we are just entering we not we are not seeing the end of it.

There there's going to be a completely new chapter to this entire episode before it can be closed. Don't you think then if you look at this I think you brought a very good point that has now you know I mean occurred in my mind that if the court I mean explicitly says that the government is liable right that's I'm I'm not wrong there right the the court ex explicit says that the government is liable

liel was used here yeah right and there was actually an abduction two cases of abduction pastor co and am right wouldn't that be an explicit or an implicit depending on how one wants to look at it that a criminal investigation need to be open instead of talking about uh uh what do you call u Um uh appealing the conscience of a good government of good governance is to say the court has made a decision. We need to abide by this decision and actually we thank the court to show us the way and open a criminal investigation into these abductions and

get to the bottom of it. Now in an in an ideal world I mean I agree with what you're saying. I agree. Uh I mean that would actually be what you would want people who is going to vote for you to say ah this government is doing what is right.

The the we need that urgency. We really need we really need that urgency to handle this matter quickly and to bring it to a conclusion. uh like many other issues in this country and which we have talked about in our podcast, the interests of the man on the street, the family in this case seems to be like at the bottom of the line at the at the very end of the line, you know, uh the victim and the family now and the victim's family, they are of utmost priority now. They are right as you said earlier, they need closure.

Yeah. the the father husband has been missing for 8 years or 9 years. The families need closure so that they can move on with their lives. There are legal implications if a person has gone has disappeared has gone missing. Under the law uh it is not explicitly written down but usually under the law in most countries in most countries if a person is missing for more than seven years 7 years 8 years then the family or the uh the heirs the heirs the family they can uh petition the court to declare such a person as gone. he's not going to come back again and then from there they can

move on to other things legal issues they may have you know family issues you see these are important so you need closure but without closure without knowing where are they you know where are they alive are they not alive what happened to them then the families themselves cannot go on move on with their lives so doesn't anyone care doesn't the government care doesn't the law care for this the the plight of the families this is the most important Now we hear people talking about you know uh what should be done how to handle this and things and that is that is your side

of the story but look at it from the family is the victim's side of the story which is what is missing that's what I see as I said earlier there's no sympathy you ask about the apology and apology will be will be good you know apology would be good because the court has already ruled there is a court ruling clearcut pay 40 million and you are liable. Huh?

Yeah. And so on. You see? So that is uh clearcut uh a bit late in the day whether you want to apologize or don't want to apologize. The court ruling is already there. But that sympathy is missing. We have to we have to sympathize with the family. You know the court also said okay uh the court has also said it very clearly that the government is is liable. That is a big statement. say here's the here's the thing that that bothers me a lot whilst we are talking right I mean of course the bread and butter uh uh situation in any society uh tends to go up number one

uh most of the time that is assuming that you are safe to make uh to go and make a living right but if you get a situation where People in power can abuse the power and make you not safe. This is what it's excuse me this is what the bottom line seems to be for me when I look at this situation is that you are not safe as an individual. All right. If you cross a certain line and the law is not there to protect you at that point when you actually need to just go on with your life.

I mean yeah at the end of the day we we are really on our own. That's not that's not how governance should work. Yeah, that that's not how we so I mean if we don't um if we can't expect safety from the government and from the instruments of government like police, military to actually protect us citizens,

keep changing the government. You see before there was a lot of hue and cry over the internal security act, right? I was uh I was one of those people who who was against abolishing the Internal Security Act. I always thought I still feel that it was it was such a law that we absolutely needed in this country. They went ahead and abolished it anyway and there were repercussions from that. But did it help us? Because these abductions happened after the Internal Security Act was abolished. So you see if people want to go rogue or if the system is going to break down they don't need repressive

laws or oppressive laws to do whatever they want to do whether there is an internal security act or not if these people decide to go rogue and do something bad they will do it. So so the what are the checks and balances that we have the checks and balances that we have is whether we as a society will tolerate this or not. This is where our tolerance our our has to be really uh we have we have to be we have to be intolerant of this kind of behavior. We have to kick up a fuss because

those in power at least those in power five governments ago did not kick up any fuss. They didn't care too much about this. That's why we had to go through this this the family had to go through the whole exercise of going to the court taking so many years. that report by the special task force uh which was which came out in 2020 if I'm not mistaken was classified as a uh a classified document

official secret official top secret the family the the the family of the victims were not given access to that report they had to go to court to get the court to release that report to them which happened in August 2024 5 years 5 years 6 years after 5 years after these abductions happened, why did they have to go to the court to get a report which basically talks about their father, their husband, I can't understand this. So where is the morality in the system that you you spend taxpayers money right to get the report done to get the task force uh uh you convene the task force they all paid

salaries by taxpayers money it involves citizens of the country. The report came out and you classified as a secret. It should be public, right? So you see there's there's a huge to me there's a morality gap, you know, it is a there's no morality here. There's no ethics. This is not law, you know. Of course, it's all done lawfully, but law is different. Ethics are different. Certain things may be lawful, but they may not be very ethical. It may not be the best thing. This is one of those examples. Lawfully, yes, they can classify it as secret. They can. It's

under it's by the law. It gives them the option. But it was that a a really good thing to do? It was not. So this is what we we need to change and this has to come from us. This is you ask who is responsible for this to effect this change. It is us not the government, not those people in power, not the politicians. No, they are different.

We have to force them to act. We have to force them. If we don't do something, if I may use a simple language, they will stand on our shoulders and do something on our heads. Yeah, that's what they will do. Yeah.

So, we have to take action. On that point, actually, I mean the if you were the home minister, let's put it this way. If you were if you have the powers of the home minister, what would you do to to resolve this situation?

Situation. Yes. Well, uh, well, let's go back to I mean, we have to obey the law. We have to obey the law. Uh, the court has made a decision. The court has made a decision and um what did the court say? The court said that uh okay the high court judge in his decision he said that the abductions were found to involve one or more serving serving you know still serving or former police officers acting in an organized unit or state capacity. This is as reported in uh channel news Asia. I did some research on this. So uh meaning that those people who were involved in this abduction

uh they are they all still around. I think they're all still alive and some of them are still serving in the police force you know meaning that the people who knew what happened to Pastor Co and Amri Jetm they're still they're still around that some of them are still serving officers. So how long would it take to call them up and ask them hey what happened you know you see so if you ask me the question what would I do or what the minister should do I think you can resolve this case within a week because the people according to the court not according to me according to justice

they are still among them are still serving police officers just call them up ask them what happened what you know you were involved in this what what went on and from there backtrack and and bring this bring this thing to a closure locate where is where are pastor co and am I think you they can resolve this issue in in very quick double quick time you don't have to wait uh 60 days 2 months because the judge has told the police to investigate and report to the attorney general general every 60 days I don't think you need 60 days

I mean if they're serving police officers you know exactly where they are ask M yeah I mean we can find kidnapped children uh or uh abducted children from the on the street and every media outlet will come out you know uh with the photos of them and and you know they so I don't think

so yeah you are right I don't think you you you need 60 days to resolve this issue at 10,000 ringit of taxpayers money a day I don't think so 600,000 ringit every 60 days when you and resolve when when the people who are involved according to the judge duty they are still serving in the police I didn't say this the judge said that so just ask them and resolve the issue that's what I would do

so I hope the minister of home affairs uh Saipuron he will take heart you know and uh and ponder this carefully because uh you have to resolve this ASAP the longer it it drags the bigger the larger will be the negative consequences. Okay, look bottom line this thing it has happened. All right, uh crap has happened. It has gone down. Huh? You can't you can't change it. What is what has what is done is done.

Let's try to minimize the damage going forward. The sooner you resolve this, the faster you get over it, bring a closure to things and move forward. The longer you don't resolve this, the greater will be the cost, the bigger will be the embarrassment, the bigger will be the cost at the polls, at at the votes, uh the bigger will be the the uh liability borne by the government. And remember this happened five governments ago. It's not the fault of the present government,

but how soon and how well they resolve this issue will determine whether the present government is held liable or not. Yes, that's the issue now. That's the issue. This is not the problem of the present government. This is a legacy. As Surin said, this is a legacy issue they inherited from five governments ago. They should resolve it ASAP. There's nothing for them to lose. There's nothing to

It's Yeah, it's I mean whilst it's a legacy issue, the court judgment is now on your table. It's today. It's now your responsibility. That's right. It is now your accountability to ensure that the closure happens.

Right. So if he were to ask voters to me this is the number one issue for the voters of all the other issue I don't care about uh uh taxation I don't care about Ron 95 why I call this the number one issue is because if the government of the day or anyone who wants to hold government power cannot protect its citizen and make it right. They have no business being in government.

If the people do not feel safe, what how are you going to make a living? Yeah. There will be consequences for the for any government of the day. Yes. If your people do not feel safe, they have to look over their shoulder or they're worried then uh in a democracy that is not good news for any government.

Yeah. Don't even talk about how are you going to do be if you run a foul for whatever reason. You cannot say that I can't make you uh feel safe and secure but I want you to vote for me.

Yeah. It doesn't work that way. Oh, you've really gotten me. You are riled up, my friend. But people should think about it. And uh we are a democracy. We are a civilized society. We have rule of law. Uh most importantly we have we have values uh we are you know moderate people we we are not into this fanatic behavior extremist behavior that is as you say that is for the banana republics we are not a banana republic we are civilized people

so if some people are not civilized or they do not know how to behave civilized they should be taken out of the equation we don't need them we absolutely don't need we don't need to I mean we don't need them yeah I think Um I think at it uh this is probably one of our shorter uh conversation you know because we are just focusing on this subject matter and uh I I think we've probably uh uh dissected as much as we can u do you have any other last words that again our sympathies go out to the families of uh pastor ko am man and although I did But uh we did not mention

it. There are a few other people who have also um gone or disappeared. Uh the NOS's and the human rights organizations have flagged their names. Uh one is uh Joshua Helme, Pastor Joshua Helme and his wife Ruth Citu. And I think there's one other person but I do not know the name. So uh these were the abductions that happened all about that time. Uh I hope this is the last of it that these things will never happen again in this country will never ever happen again and uh most importantly the families need closure. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Okay. I would like to um uh urge our audience I think u myself and uh say you know we we love our conversations on this uh on on our issues uh domestically in Malaysia. We'll probably make we are going to make this a weekly occurrence um and and discuss further uh uh policy matters and uh and issues that concern our people. Um so I hope that you can come and join us uh subscribe like so that you don't miss any of uh our conversations either uh on this subject or on any other subjects uh that I we we think at the gutshot podcast is uh uh would impact our lives. Uh so thank you

so much for joining us. Thank you again site for coming on. Thank you. Appreciate it very much. Thanks. Thank you. See you again.