Ft Prof Tajuddin Rasdi Malaysian Mis-Education – The Problem is Fundamental!

Hello, good day everyone. We are back at the gutshot podcast. I'm your host uh Shamsul Sam and here with me today is uh my good friend professor Taj Rasi of uh UN uh UCSI University. He's professor of architecture. And uh our topic today we're going to talk education, education reform. um and the problem I believe is fundamental. So let's see how this conversation goes along. We've got um quite a few points that I think you will find interesting and outside from what most people are talking about in the mainstream. Uh Prof. here we are.

Thank you for coming. Thank you for inviting me. So long time no see. I see. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. We haven't seen each other for quite a bit. Wow. Maybe almost 2 years. So, um I mean I look at uh education basically it's a preparation for our youth um to uh to enter not just the workplace but also the world. Mhm.

Um and when I looked at that actually the first focus really the focus uh I think talking to you prior to the inter uh to this conversation we're going to have is the two most important thing is the fundamental education that we provide to our children. Mhm.

We are both children of the ' 70s maybe late 60s7s when we were in primary, secondary. Yeah. Even kindergarten, right? Yeah.

But I never went to kindergarten. Oh, you never did. Really? Okay. You know what is interesting about my uh my education? My father sent me to uh uh uh I I wonder I think it was a Methodist uh Methodist kindergarten

um connected to a church. Oh yeah. I was one of the three um Muslim boys that uh was in that kindergarten. My wife went to convent. Okay.

Also connected to the cathedral I think. Yeah. Well those are missionary school days right? Yeah, we miss those. My sister was in convent um convent St. Mary's convent for all you Singapani boys and girls.

Um and then my dad said my So so the school was what what was the name? No, it was just a church kindergarten. So it's like my uh my kindergarten was uh connected to a to uh to the church. So when they go for mass uh in the morning

uh the three of us non-Christian kids would be playing outside you know and then for about I don't know I can't remember half an hour or something like that and then we all go to class which is uh the correcting building to the church.

Okay. Yeah. Um my sister um actually was sent to a Chinese school. Mhm. That was when I mean that is uh but primary school what school

primary school I went to uh in scholar Ibrahim ini huh yeah so my sister went to St. Barry's uh convent so you're not in the missionary school I was not in missionary school I'm from St. Mark. So,

ah yeah, there you go. Right. Those were the days. You you're more a bit more senior than me by about 2 years. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean just the change in the landscape of our education system,

our fundamental education is very very stark I believe. Oh, you know, by the way, just out of curiosity for people, my uh my sister, she went to Chinese uh Kirata. She ended up actually in Hibii University in Japan.

Oh. So, she came back and taught in the UTM as a Japanese lecturer. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, we've had a we've had quite a diverse background. Your architecture, I'm I'm a chemical engineer by training. Mhm.

Uh from US. So I went to University of Florida. You went to University of Wisconsin. Yeah. Yeah. I think uh we went to two of the top public universities in America.

Yeah. If you ask me. Mhm. Uh so let's go to then people understand um uh this uh dynamics and the evolution of what happened to our education system.

Mhm. And what we that went through that education system and what we see today. Yeah. And as we said I I think let's start with uh how your views are

at the at the fundamental level primary let's start primary and secondary what are your thoughts what is happening today compared to our time yeah well uh I've been uh in the university as you know as an academic for about more than 30 years I think.

Yeah. And um unlike most other academics who's either bi busy in their research or administration work, I like to spend most of my time reflecting and thinking and writing and speaking. So I look upon this uh our education um when we were there and I have always said that uh well you know first of all there were two parts to this uh education that we went through as far as I understand it. not being a so-called expert in uh in education but having gone through it and now having reflected on it the first part uh that I remember was that uh education was supposed to uh

teach us to be what I call workers you know industry based meaning that the country is uh evolving and we need the economics and therefore industry uh was one of those uh things that we uh was preparing for even though it didn't take until Mahate was the prime minister. Uh you know we got agriculture industry that sort of thing. The other thing if uh we read the Razak report was to bring the society closer together you know with the muhiba and that sort of thing. We were so-called struggling with the May 13 incident and things like that. So I think this is the the the backdrop of

our um uh curriculum curriculum. Okay. Okay. And uh throughout the uh the time when uh we went through the the education um the I'm not sure about about your time Sam my time uh like the uh the book the

yeah we still I mean I that is sajara for people who doesn't know history. Yeah. Uh because in Arabic is t. So that's uh they they started to Arabize right then but the curriculum was still I think from UK because I remember having to memorize the life of Jesus, the life of Sedara, Gautama Buddha and the life of Mahatma Gandhi. All these were given in the in the Torah subject,

right? So history then was more global rather than uh rather than local. So uh our teachers I don't even have a Malay teacher when I was in primary school. Uh all my teachers were Indians or Chinese there. There's just two races. So um those was the landscape uh of our our curriculum at that time. And then when we uh graduated um so we went to US and all that and I had children or we had children and when they went to school I could see that it was already different or the curriculum was more local

right okay it's local okay it's fine when uh you say okay we we're taking over the education all right now we're going to write our own curriculum rather than depend on uh some masal uh kind of a curriculum Right.

Well, uh, so we were evolving basically from uh the British uh Yes. the British the the British legacy of uh education system.

Yes. To a more uh local based education. More local local based system. And it's supposed to be good because well then you're learning about your your own uh situation and things like that.

But then came the uh the Islamic reform, right? which was in the 80s very strong you know Abim and I I know this because I I became part of it in the United States not in Malaysia I only discovered it when I was in the US okay

it was called the Islamic uh revivalism or something but here it's called the Islamic reform but uh they were all led by uh uh non-religious scholars they were led by professionals okay and in the United States and uh then In Malaysia, we have uh things um NOS's like Abim,

right? Okay. So, they began with Ano Ibrahim and also other one other one it was called Jamaah Islah Malaysia or now it's called Ikram. So this this uh these things uh began to um seek there were two identities for Malaysia at that time or maybe three let's say one was the 1960s7s the idea of a western based uh mindset

the other was more Malay based mindset meaning that you have to have Malay first okay then the next one was this the Islamic uh mindset first so um now many people are uncomfortable with the idea of Islam being being part of a of a political social mindset outside of its mosque and outside of its uh so-cal um institution. Uh but I was taught at that time in the United States mind you not not in in in Malaysia. Okay. Um that the the the idea of Islam was number one it it doesn't really look at race. Okay. So, so, so one attractive thing is that it doesn't consider you're a Malay

or you're a Chinese. It doesn't matter as long as you're a good person and things like that. And the good person is more or less defined in this idea of Islam which is as far as I understand it being framed in a progressive mode. Okay. So, so that was the situation with education. Suddenly um Anoa comes in and then the the the Amno at that time uh was uh facing I think Mahhat read the landscape very uh cleverly that the landscape was changing to some sort of an Islamist thing because of the Iranian revolution and also the the the coming home of a lot of these uh students that

were sent overseas to be more westernized but part of them became more westernized but the other part became more Islamized. Okay. So, so party Islams of Malaysia at one time didn't uh have much traction but with this new people coming in there was that and so Mahati read it and that's why he incorporated uh Ano Ibrahim and let him do what was called the Islamization of of Malaysia at that time and so the government institutions you can see there's change about it. I went through a little bit about that and and so the education also took on uh something within that the KBSR if I

don't know whether you remember the curriculum scholar it was past my time ahu scholar my my child went through that yeah so my children also went through that and I had to do a paper on that at the university and and things like that so it was just about uh putting in values what Anoir was doing at as as the minister of education at the time was putting in what he considered lost humanistic values and and putting in into through the the the curriculum that was the GBSM and KBSR.

May I uh just see confirm whether uh my uh historical uh recollection is correct. Um Anoa is basically a co-founder of uh Abim.

Yes. If I'm not mistaken. And so was Hadi Awang. Yes. Both of them were the same boat. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. Continue. Okay. So, so, so that uh uh that was what was attractive to me as a kind of a person, you know, just understanding the world. The idea of uh not just industry based, you know, you you you need also values. Okay. But where are you getting the values from? It's either you're getting it from your race or you're getting it from uh let's say the western kind of a value which I also appreciate very much because I learned a lot. I mean the television was my world when

when I was growing up. Same here. All the programs I could quote from Scooby-Doo to voyage to the bottom of the sea. Those are my uh my favorite. I learned English from them. And then there's any blighton books and all sorts of Tom Swift.

I think I I think that part is probably for our generation. Yeah. Was uh uh pretty similar for all races during our time when we were growing up. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you could see the demography of the teachers from when I didn't even have a a Malay teacher to now almost an all Malay Malay teacher kind of a thing with I'd say easily 30% non-Malays at the moment I I I assume. So, uh the the the landscape of politics because you cannot talk about education if you don't touch on this uh political

because the political is the one that is uh the driving the the change in the people like policies. Yeah, people like to think that uh you know I learned after 25 years of writing politics Sam that well uh this is the world okay this is the real world in the real world you cannot uh put things in the laboratory like in research now I'm I'm commenting on research where research seems to be put in a laboratory when in fact uh social science research especially it cannot be in a laboratory when you do research you need to also look at the context of the the politics of the time So touch um

let's go back to where we started right I mean uh before we go too far uh down no I'm just explaining the backdrop I haven't given my attitude or or or or evaluation of it yet

please okay yeah um we are trying to uh look at the the I mean you've basically lined out the evolution of how and why the education become what it is today to a certain extent.

Yeah. But I haven't finished yet. Okay. Go ahead, brother. Go ahead. Because you went through the Islamic reform, right? Okay. And uh it was going into that direction, right? Uh until Yeah. the reform movement and all that where Anwa was taken out, right? And so suddenly uh it became I would say uh radically Islamized

right you know when I suddenly saw what is the uh uh a lot of the books let's say in history uh they're dealing with a lot of Islam uh chapters

right you know which I think was even myself too much and then suddenly discovering that there are the the the pangajan Islam you the pangan Islam having more more classes and things like that. So I I don't think that was part of the Islamic uh reform agenda.

Okay. But it became more what I call Islamic race-based uh idea. Okay. Okay. So this is very important. Um the Islamic reform was not race-based. The the enemy of the reformist was Muslim themselves. But Islam race or Islam with race uh then the enemies are those who are non-Muslim. Okay, that that is the two diff uh uh different things that I I I discovered and I still maintain um when I meet the the first generation of reformists. Yeah. I mean they were not interested in in race politics. They were interested more in global politics and also with Islam as part of that

global agenda. So it was not a a a local thing uh at all because Islam is is global. Okay. Malayu that's local. So that's that's how it is. So finally the evolution came into what I call a more religio racial racial uh framework uh putting into the the curriculum. So that's the end of it at the moment and that's why

uh that is the backdrop that I understand it. As I said I haven't gone into my evaluation of whether what I feel about it in terms of present situation. Fair enough. I mean that's Yeah. Yeah. That's it's okay. It's okay. I mean uh we we there's a uh that's a very that that's quite a brief summary as brief as one can do. You know that we understand this fact. I mean we don't

uh and uh I I thought on my point of view I think because as as we said at the start of this podcast, this podcast has always been a conversation. Mhm. Um and uh uh I felt on my on on my thinking I felt that actually what um I never I never thought about uh uh throughout my primary or secondary I don't know whether you felt the same way

that um but but maybe before you get into that. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe let me surmise something that I have never said before. Sure. Um let's say that we went through this education the first part

right okay before the KBSM KBSR thing what was our product product are people who look at the world uh rather than look at the local things you know because you and I uh and furthermore with the DA economy we went overseas and so we saw we saw the world and uh we are not racist or Islamist in in any way. Okay. So, so, so that was the the first product. Now, the KBSM, KBSR, um, they began to to become a bit more race and and you know in when I studied Islam, I had to read a lot of books in order to be who I am at the moment.

Let me ask you a question then just to inject at what point do you really uh study Islam as you put it? I always say at what age at what age? At what for is it college or is it uh secondary school or what not?

Okay. So just a quick one in the uh primary school there was no subject of Islam. Okay. Yeah. As I remember it I don't remember as I said there was no M teacher at all. I I don't remember. Yeah you're right. I don't remember when in secondary school

only secondary school but then I only studied for two years because my father retired. I had to go off to Taiping and there was only this Chinese school, Huyan and uh I was the only Malay uh in the uh in that in that school at that time,

right? And so the head teacher said that uh well because you're the only Malay, we have to hire an ad, okay, to come and teach you even though there's only one person, right? Uh I asked my father because I didn't really like that subject very much.

Can I just uh not take that subject? And so he said, "Yeah, sure." And so I didn't take Islam for for secondary school at all. You took arts is it? I took arts. So So then when you ask the question where did I learn all this? Well, it was in the US.

Okay. Because uh in the US uh there was this group of uh students coming from medicine. I was in uh Green Bay at that time and they came from medicine. W these people are quite incredible. You know they they come in groups. They bring in groceries. They call you brother. And they they they they have uh you know when they shake your hand, it's like you're going to break your hand, you know. And uh also they look you in the eyes and you could see their faces. These are these are very religious people.

Are they Malays or are they? They are all Malays all under the government sponsorship. That was 1980. Okay. Yeah. So I so my first introduction into the Islamic reform was that when they came to our apartment they brought in groceries they stayed for two nights and they you know ad us to pray and things like that. Uh even though few of my friend they were already praying uh but they then form what is called the usra you know the usra is this uh circle. Dude, you're bringing back so much memory. Go on. Come on. We will unpack this for our audience in a short while. Just wait.

Yeah. Just so the the the usra was my first introduction. The idea that uh uh we could learn from each other uh by having some people reading uh certain books and so uh they were recommending uh certain books uh for us to actually begin this. I I became the leader uh for our little uh community of Malays there and and then uh we were invited to what were called training camps. Well, sounds militant but actually it's called training camps. You have it in a hotel where you can first of the time see the national leaders come people like Hadi Awang people like uh uh Imaduin I didn't

see Anu until he became minister okay but I did see uh uh some of the party Islam Malaysia's leaders and at that time the group is called Malaysian Islamic Study Group M I SG okay

I remember that. Yeah. So, so, so we went there and when you go there, there there's a lot of book book fairs. Okay. So, first time I see all these books on the hadith of the prophet Muhammad on the interpretation of the Quran, I was very excited. I'm I'm I'm I'm a bookworm. Okay. So, so I bought these books and for the first time, you know, you're holding nine volumes of Sah Al Bkari and you can actually read it because it's uh translated into English by some Indian scholar and it's a Kazi publication from India. I

I don't know that. So you so I discovered that a lot of these Islamic books come from India. Okay. Because the scholars and things like that. So I bought it and imagine all the stories that you hear about the prophet and things like that. Suddenly when you read this this thing it's alive that that is there. Then the book like the s ibu hisham I read it and my goodness these are the stories my mother told me about the prophet mystat told me and things like that. So so so I began to read it and this is where I become very different from a lot of the Malays who claim to defend Islam. they never

read as much. Let me um so it was in the US. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me then uh invite or or or or share my personal experience on how I uh navigated that particular period in our life

because we're not that far off as I as as as we know you you're two years my senior right? Um I uh I was the first um I was the first batch that was actually uh Bahasa Malaysia medium.

Yes. Yes. I'm the last. You're the last. I'm the last. Yeah. Um even though the two years different, I jump one class. So that was the reason. Okay. Yeah. So um I was like um I I went through the same thing you did because uh we were fat by

Florida. They were larger Malay community I think. Um no they were not. Oh they were not. Um I I'll get to that just just quickly on the on on on our primary education. You are right.

Uh primary we did not have any uh Islamic school. So I remember my father uh actually got an adat to come to the house to teach uh the Quran.

The Quran you have to Yeah. Yes. Uh so that was basically paid by or or any whatever the amount is you know it's like you know it's like charity it's a welfare or it's a charity for the

because basically you can ask money for teaching the Quran you know something like that that's basically now now you have to that's one thing I want audience to understand in the olden days you're not supposed to make money from teaching uh religion Yeah.

So if anything people are supposed to to pay or or or give it is out of their heart whatever they want to give. Right. So that's one thing that uh that I uh I went through. I didn't like it very much.

Um mostly because the first one was I it it was uh uh it it was an external class that we attend and I didn't like the bullying.

Mhm. among children. You know, children can be very cruel, right? So, when you are born, I I was a lot darker than these guys, okay? And ugly, right? Bullying is uh is part for the course.

So, uh ended up that the the theust come to the house. Okay. Um and then secondary school, I recall I think at most we have half an hour of class.

Mhm. And at most I don't think it was more than twice a week. Yes, I think so. Correct. That's right. Right. Twice a week. And it was very fundamental. Uh and that was in secondary school. Yes.

Right up from form one to form five. Okay. So the focus I went to college in Alost which is a semi uh semi-boarding school. Mhm.

Uh and then I went to Sutab Haleim, which is uh you know what we in Kad call Janan, right? So uh wink wink. That that tells you I was one of the top student that got into the full boarding school.

So you the you the the the so-called MCKK of the north, right? But that was co uh in uh in in Jan. And um I found that uh here's the interesting part. Even when I was at college, the warden was actually aust.

Mhm. Okay. So we had our regimen also. But one thing I like and I still remember he's already passed away a couple of years back. Everybody loved him. M

um there is uh a sense of if today he was teaching I think he would be labeled as secular you know the way uh theas was teaching it um he was not forcing things on you

and he was very self-critical to the point that he doesn't like us to think of supernatural stuff okay right So uh that was kind of he he had a big imprint on the way I look at religion.

Mhm. Then when and I was uh in a situation where because we are transitioning to uh to to Malay medium sort of like um and I was in the same situation. Most of my teachers were actually Chinese and Indian.

Okay. I got uh a Bahasa Malaysia teacher which is Malay uh and an ad. Mhm. That's it. Mhm. All right. In college. Okay. So, I realized something. I I don't know just the the instinct in me was I got to work hard uh to go to a better school so to speak and and I did that. Mhm.

Um and I must say I I I think I've said this before when I went to Janan um the teachers were superb. Mhm. Right. It is a combination. My physics, chemistry, biology teacher were Chinese.

I had mathematics teacher two of them. One for math, one was for modern math which is uh uh which are Malay. Mhm. And th those are the one I remembered very vividly. Mhm.

Um, and they were I they they were the best of the best I could think of. Mhm. Right. And our our our science labs and facilities were topnotch.

Mhm. Okay. Um and again Mhm. Um there were no religious compulsion. Mhm. Okay. We don't even even better you know we don't even like you know have jama for

Yeah. every uh prayer time. No such thing. Okay. Um so that partly informed okay. Um I had like you I think our influence of being able to read at a very young age

uh in English language stands us a lot apart I believe because it doesn't teach just knowledge it opens a whole culture acceptance you know the whole world

right so I do also remember a time when actually when you were good even especially in from one or from two when you are so good in English actually your your peers your Malay peers uh would call you to be almost like a traitor to the race I had to go through that

oh okay okay you may not have because I have mixed mixed friends no because you have no I do too but what I'm saying is because we were more mixed during those days

right But but I think during your time you were already saying you're English medium. Mhm. So you got no your your peers had no choice. Yes. That's right. My time it was Malay medium.

And there was a lot of nationalism of the Malay race and why you want to have the lingua frank. Ah yeah being Malay. So now when you are good at English

you are a show off. Yeah that's true. Okay. So that was very real during my time. My children when they came back from uh Scotland had to go through that. Yeah. Yeah. But they all English.

So you see the mindset has already started to change. These are what I call unintended consequences. Yes. Yes. Right. Mhm. So but I couldn't care less. Maybe that's the rebellion nature that you know me and I think you and I we are a bit of a rebel anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. So um that is the primary and secondary school uh experience. The other part maybe we can touch together as a result of how we went through and the collegial nature that we mix between races.

You know um we I would even primary school I would go to my Chinese friend house. I still remember this. Mhm. Right. And I would have lunch at their house. It never bothered me to ask halal or not halal.

Mhm. Because why? They know already and they're telling me this you can eat. Mhm. That you can eat. Mhm. Right. And nobody asks about utensils. Mhm.

You know. Yeah. I understand. You understand? Yeah. Yeah. So there now we have the halal glass and the haram glass and we even and and the the it permeates to the point that you even separate have uh situation where there was separation of cantens.

Yeah. Now they also have uh halal lift and haram lift. Are you sure? Yes. For transport transporting uh uh you know male and female. No uh pork and stuff like that.

No joke. I heard about it. I don't know whether it's true or not but I heard about it that in order for you to get some sort of a halal certificate all of those things must be halal something something along that line which to me uh having read uh a lot of religious books it religion became very easy for me because I can make with anybody because I'm very sure of what I know to be yeah the the basic belief so uh people can eat in front of me in terms of uh Ramadan hey no problem Because fasting is about you having to challenge yourself in terms of what uh is out there which is different than

you. So people can so so there's no tiptoeing around me. I have to be you know strong uh against those temptation. But here everything wants to be oh let me we have to make it easy for the Muslim so close all the shop. Nothing to do with Islam as far as I can understand it. I go back to what my uh told me in form one.

It a very simple uh very simple uh what do you call uh decision making for you to make. Mhm. Um if in your heart that is halal

you go ahead. Mhm. That was very much I don't know I've never heard anything different right up until I went to university and even after university

um that uh that was how we look at things. It is about what do you call it? Yakin. Yeah. Right. If you're you're confident you have uh of of it being halal,

you eat. And if if you don't have anything halal, just eat. That's also a very simple rule. A very simple rule. Yeah. Right. So we and I think this is where where we talk about whilst we are talking about education,

right? These are the impacts of education and what the education system has incalculated into the mindset of the youth. That what we what we want to compare between how we grew up M

and how our uh youth and society has been shaped. Yeah. So with if you were uh referring to that okay so there there are two things that as far as I understand it

right you either was raised like us within a situation where Islam was not a major player in terms of social or politics because it was not yes during that time. So we call ourself accidental because uh that that's how it is. There was no no intellectual idea about about what Islam is. It's just that it was part of a cultural tradition and it was not a political or social force at that time. Now the other part in order to be like what you say to be yakin in that then you have to have uh more knowledge of it like what I had done I had read a lot and I'm very confident. The problem

with the education that you are referring to is because a lot of Muslim fall in the middle. They neither have a lot of knowledge nor did they go through our accidental westernbased um uh secular education. Our education was secular. But you know the the the I would defer in a sense that

the information that was imparted to me by the educated theat is not secular. Mhm. You know it would have been deemed secular today

by those who are in power in authority in the education system. You know but those days that was what was taught to me. Mhm. you know,

we were taught uh this was the time for you to pray. Mhm. You know, and if you don't have the if if for some reason um you have to combine the prayers.

Yeah. Because you don't have there's a way. Mhm. There is always a way out. M it was never the the concept of Islam was that it not it is easy.

That is the that is one of the main concepts that I learned that if it is difficult then you can be very sure that's not Islamic.

That is a very interesting thing because now you have people not praying and then they have to be fined for something like that you know. Yeah. Yeah. So uh Islam instead of becoming a personal uh rule uh to to each individual now becomes institutionalized in a very uh authoritarian way. Authoritarian way.

Yeah. So, so some people say well that is good because then uh you will clearly be able to go to heaven uh in in in a easier manner because if you don't have that then so many things are free then your challenges are a lot and therefore uh it'll be difficult now coming to education I asked this question I said what is education for is it to be safe or is it to meet the unknown this is where It's very interesting Sam when you look at our education and I phrase it oh so that means our education whether you're talking about uh school or university it's the same it's to be safe

I call it tempurong education what is tempurong education tempurong education is you just teach enough within the tempurong and then you create opportunities like jobs and things like that that fits the tempuro. So that's where it becomes very problematic when a lot of the students nowadays go to university coming out without a job because the tonur has shattered because the job market has shattered it has evolved into something else and that's why I said the failure of education when you teach uh education to meet the unknown and that is where the versatility supposed to be but when you teach

education in order to be safe and that's where the danger is I said if you put five cockroaches under one uh concrete shell they will be safe from the cat but they will die all of them eventually right

I yeah I mean I think I would put it another way uh I called it I I I know it's been mostly said called critical thinking

right but it's not just critical thinking per se is the ability to think on your own and actually um uh like you say uh being uh being worldly

and uh being able to uh accommodate uh changes in u in the in in in in any environment that you put yourself into. That's right. You know it's the fundamental education must provide not just knowledge

but also a a the capability to think in order to survive. Mhm. You know and thrive. Exactly. So I think if uh at this point I I have I I want to add something on the on on our experience in the US to contrast ourself

right and and what we experience and then uh we go to actually the uh the nitty-gritty of what we think we can what we think can be can be maneuvered within the current fundamental education of primary and secondary school if you don't mind. Right.

So at this point I I just want if you guys like this conversation um and want to continue listening to this type of conversation please like and subscribe so that you know you get into uh uh into your algorithm this uh our gut shout podcast. So I just want to say a bit on that. Uh anyway, uh going back to this um I remember I remember my reaction in um when I went to university the first semester and I encountered the same way you did

first semester, second semester the usra gang I thought I call I called it right which is what you say which is this religious group of people. Mhm. My reaction was completely different

and it was odd to the other people's reaction. If you want to, you know, adjust to this one, I don't know how many of the Malays who end up uh my reaction was actually uh viscerally I rebelled.

Mhm. I did not I was like okay I did not sign up for this right uh I was not interested and I was like stay away from me.

Mhm. Okay. Because my mindset was very simple. I was there to graduate in chemical engineering. It was already tough as it is. Mhm.

And what I saw that bothered me actually is if you ask me because uh you know who who tend to also knock on your door, huh?

You're going to have uh uh the Mormons. You're going to have the you're going to have the the the mooneyies, okay, which is a Christian cult of uh uh the Reverend Sanangmoon of Korea.

Okay. Uh I went to one dinner because uh they had hot cheeks there as free free lunch as you said. Okay. Um I did go uh to one USRA session. I'm I'm a very curious person.

Right. But after that I was like in all cases I was like no no no no I'm not signing I I'm not signing up for any of this. Mhm. Okay. And I was actually quite uh

in the opposite I was the one running the USRA courses. Oh yeah. I was like I was like I I couldn't understand. I thought this is not my culture because I was seeing people in nikab. Mhm. And I was seeing that these people uh they were they were more involved in the religion than what they were paid by taxpayer to do

which is actually I I I had this idealism that I owe it to society. My dad was a school teacher. Mhm. Before I left, he told me your job there is to study because you are paid for by taxpayers

by for scholarship. I think that one uh is very interesting because all of us come from not very rich families. Yeah. So I excel in in my studies. Yeah. You know uh with honors and all that

but I also became an Islamic reformist. But the interesting thing is that I never joined formally any group. Yeah. So I mean that's the that's also the the the evolution of you personally, right?

Okay. So you went your own way slightly. But I did see that quite a number of our uh Malay students were enraptured. the word to use I understand that is enraptured by this movement

which I did not know until later was a movement um very much connected to the Muslim Brotherhood yes right is an offshoot of Muslim Brotherhood effectively from what I understand

in the audience doesn't understand Muslim Brotherhood is what it's Muslim Brotherhood is basically uh the Muslim yeah Ian Muslim that the direct translation which actually originated in uh Egypt.

Egypt. Yeah. And the founder is somebody called Hassan Albana. Yeah. And uh and and that was basically uh where the philosophy is about reviving the global caliphate.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I did not know all that. All I knew was I'm there to study engineering. Um and I I was completely turned off. I was completely turned off. Not just uh to and I see all of this for better for for a lack of better word

as a cult. Mhm. Okay. So I was not I was more interested in what I was assigned to do there over there. uh and I really had no time for unfortunately

uh I mean the curriculum was uh was so demanding in in essence I mean if anybody were to Google I think uh probably aerospace is the hardest second would come chemical

and u and and and apart from playing basketball uh at the end of the day with my friends Uh, and that's the other thing I did, which is I didn't want to mix around with Malaysians.

Mhm. Because I say I travel halfway around the world. I wanted to understand other cultures, you know. So, I had friends who were Americans of all races

actually. But in um I even had a friend who is a cop who is a black guy who dropped by my house when he wants to have coffee. Mhm. Uh I had uh and uh I had friends from Kenya.

Mhm. You know, so anyway um so coming back to our country. Yeah. And the idea of education you know you know what before we come back to that in my opinion

the primary and the secondary formation of our education made us think in a certain way. Yeah. you know and when we encountered it okay we had slightly different reactions to it

but for you it was knowledge seeking right for me it was like uh I think this is a cult I'm not coming at all right but there was an inoculation part of it

that you know allowed us to be instead of conforming but took our own path. Mhm. Yeah. So now take us back to uh uh yeah because uh

to the prim to to to where you want to go. Yeah perhaps the audience uh kind of confusing why we are reliving old times in relation to education but this is the backdrop of two uh similar Malays but also different

in terms of pathways. Yes. Okay. But then coming up to a single a single uh podcast today to to to ask the question then what what's going on? Not to say what's wrong with education but what's going on with it.

Yeah. Yeah. So I I have a lot of things I feel that are wrong with our education system today. Yeah. Well being an academic I always tell people telling somebody is wrong is something that we don't do. We we always uh have things like putting things in context you know because uh it's difficult to go and uh debate about you being wrong or you being right actually it doesn't it doesn't exist in academic world doesn't exist okay it doesn't exist it shouldn't exist because if you are right then you become god I said okay so so with respect to uh education for me uh what's

happening now regardless of whatever history has gone through uh sometime people like to blame things or ano was the one this I don't I don't do that uh Sam I I I look at it okay this is our education and for me education always need to reflect what's going on presently in the country okay so one big question is why why is it that we are still hung over with all this race and religious conflict even more so why why are we still having this this idea that you know you're suspecting uh uh Number one, you're suspecting some people trying to destroy Islam. Uh, and

number two, you're not accepting other people's heritage as a national heritage like the bakut issue, you know. So, I'm say what what's what's going on here? Okay. As a Muslim who's gone through Islamic reform, I have no problem accepting Bakut as a as a heritage. Is part of another culture and that culture is our family of Malaysian. And as a Muslim, I have the idea of Malaysia within my Islamic framework. But a lot of people, you cannot have that. You must either have the Islam or not. And so that is something which I look at our education. Is this what uh is it being

produced? uh this this this this mindset that uh in order for you to be with one group then you cannot have or you cannot be or live along with the other group. You need to have the other group subservient to your majority group. This is what Hadi was saying. Uh making friends with non-Muslim is okay as long as they are subservient. That's why they can work with Garakan because Garakhan always follows whatever they say, you know, which to me that is not acceptable. If you're in a democratic situation, uh then you need to to to to have this uh a balanced discussion and

then uh take whichever cause that is uh better for all and and the idea of people being subsient does not exist because this is the dignity of all citizens and also of all humanity. But here is where the problem rise where some people believe I'm speaking only of Muslim. I don't know much about Christianity or Buddhist. So I'm I'm not referring to that. Uh some of my Christian friends say we also have the same problem when you talk about Muslims like that. We have Christians like that also. I don't want to comment on that. I'm commenting on our own uh uh uh uh faith

and especially when we are holding the majority and basically the majority is holding essentially the political power. Yeah. So I I I always keep reminding is it uh it does seem that there is a narrative that if you hold on to Islam and also your own group and that's what Mahhat and others are saying you must unite Malays must unite if not others. What's what's the big deal? If you understand and you are on par in terms of knowledge and and and doing business, what are you afraid of? Why why do you need your group? Why this tribalism? You're trying to tell me that you cannot

uh meet the world. Okay. You need to have your tribal group. Uh whether they Muslim or they Malays, you need to be with your tribal group in order to survive. I don't accept that. I can be alone. you can be alone and we don't have uh any problem. So, so why is the education uh permeating this decision? And I'm worried when we look at a lot of the uh religious school coming up a lot not there are two kinds. One is the traditional madrasa. Then the other one is the so-cal uh modern like you know school, Abim school. My grand children goes to to one type and I'm worried they

don't have any non-M friends. Okay. So how how do they how do they meet the the unknown the the global world? And so this is uh something which doesn't come into the discourse because if you are doing something considered good like being very religious or having uh having uh religion as the center of your life of your family of your education then it must be something good then it shouldn't be disturbed for me I don't think that's uh that's right at all. So this is where uh we are at impass. Our public education is industry based and at and also having this racebased idea of Islam

but then they also have this other which is very uh religious based where even though you say one is a bit progressive but I don't I don't know how progressive that is because uh they don't have any any connection with other non non-malise uh things like that. So, so this is where uh we are at. We are producing uh our future children uh coming into Malaysian that will be more and more divided.

Well, uh and dependent on the the tribal idea. I I I start talking I um there are two sides of this uh particular particular issue if you were to ask me. Mhm.

Okay. That is one side of the issue which what you just said which is our education system has actually split our society apart and have have uh actually molded a certain mindset within the majority Malay population

to be thinking that others must be subservient to their ideology. Yeah. Okay. That's one part. Mhm. Okay. And that started from primary to secondary. So I really don't even want to go to tertiary

because tertiary is where it is finishing education so to speak. By the time you are 16 your mindset tend to be set. Mhm. You know it. So to me the other part of the problem is also um the part of actually the critical thinking the um the analysis the the the process breaking the worldly knowledge access to information

that has actually in my opinion has deteriorated beyond what you and I went through. Mhm. because of our education becoming insular.

Mhm. And our education becoming too religious. Mhm. Okay. Which means that because you only have a limited time in a day. Yeah. Right. So if you allocate you know 60% or even 40% of the classes

to religion you you're taking away from some other which are essential for your fundamental education. That's number one. The second thing is that then what does the non-Malay students do when the Malay students have to take those? They are also participating in non-productive education.

Mhm. So what has happened if you were to ask me because I I been for the last 40 years employing people. Mhm. And I have seen deterioration

of abilities uh of our youth. uh uh not just the Malay students but also the non-Malay students. So it has been a negative a net negative for everyone of in our population.

Mhm. Okay. And this is my concern on two fronts. the quality of the education that shapes us to get into adulthood and get ready for I don't care what kind of tertiary whether it is a university degree or TVAT which I'm more inclined to not everybody need to go to university

um the uh other thing is um is is is the secondary which is what you just emphasized which is the splitting of our society and the sub and and the and the and the superiority or dominant mindset that they have incalculated.

Yeah. I just let me just summarize that in one question to you please. Does all question need an answer? Um that's a that's an interesting point.

See this is the philosophical question that nobody no educator I think in Malaysia ask because all their questions have an answer. But when you come into my class I said there are no answers. There are only questions. Okay. And in questioning if you can come up with the right question then you have a a kind of respond for the time being there are never an answer. So so this is where Sam the the problem when you talk about critical thinking and and and having to employ people who cannot you know uh uh uh um adapt to things or innovate things is because answers are provided for you.

Okay. So, so this is where we think that education uh if you have uh answer all those questions and you get eight A's. But there's religion, isn't it? No, it's not about religion. It's also about all the

No, no. I'm I'm I'm talking from an ideological standpoint. Right. Yeah. In religion, you always have to provide some kind of answer. There is an answer and that answer No, that's not an answer. That's the answer.

The answer is a problem is not challengeable. Yeah, that's the problem. So, same thing with uh whether you're studying science, whether you're studying uh uh um uh mathematics and all that, there's always an answer. Okay? But but the point here is that I'm just trying to tell you that why is it that we have to have an education that have all uh question that have answers. Why can't you have some education okay within the secondary school that doesn't have any answer that has the problems and then they have the their their responses that way then you can answer what happened in history this

is how I think it could be so there's five or six different version of it rather than a single version so this is where I think our education uh fails because we provide answers to our set Christian but in other places where they they teach if I'm not mistaken you know there was a class in international school I said what what is this subject oh we we ask the student to read a book and then these are 25 students version of what they think of the book

bro I yeah that's what I mean I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm going to add something a bit to your question that you asked me just now right uh from a philosophical standpoint.

Mhm. Um they are questions that are opinions. Even history is written by victors as they say it. So you can have different version of how you interpret the history.

You should have different version, right? Something's wrong if you don't have the different version. When you learn science, cuz I'm a science nerd. Sure. All right. M when you learn science um there is a scientific method

yeah but the scientific method also depend on a lot of frameworks and but actually what you are taught in science and that's why I'm an advocate

uh actually at the primary level for people to be two things I'm a big advocate of I don't know whether you agree with me or not okay if I had my way I would return back to English as the lingua frana Mhm.

Okay. Not only not because uh this whole idea I think is misguided about Bahasa being essential to be uh our lingua frana to unite the country.

Mhm. Okay. That can be this the the the a language and we all talk that language. Okay. But when I mean I I always brought this point up. I think Liquanu made the correct decision to retain English as their uh lingua frana of education.

Let's just cut short that the point that you're trying to make about lingua frana. Very simple. It's for excess of no wait excess of knowledge. I'll just explain. Please go. Your your your turn. In secondary and primary school.

Yes. The lingo frana is Malay. Yeah, you go to UITM, you have to do everything in English. Uhhuh. So what the hell is happening here? Yeah. You you just a problem for the children. Okay. So same thing uh when they change uh from English to to to to from Malay to to to English, you know, mathematic and science.

Then I asked the question u um um uh they asked in the university at one time for for me to lecture in English while when I came in I was lecturing in Malay because that was what was required. But then I said if you are going to change it you have to have time. Okay. And and what happens when the the student comes in they're still with the Malay language and then I'm speaking in English. So Sahakan I'm not pro Basa Malaysia.

Uh it's just that the point here is that it's confusing. Now you you want it in Bahasa Malaysia the the secondary and primary education. Uh even the dual the dual system you so trying they trying to get rid of. But then when you go into UITM and I'm examining thesis and things like that and say why English so bad you know everybody is have to speak in English it's a commendable thing for for them to do it ITM but then how do you answer that you uh said uh bahasa basa but then uh when you come to the university it's in English

okay so at the moment all I know is that UKM is the Jara they uh lecture in in Malay I think and they are the one that talks about ilm and and basa and all this thing and but the point here is that everybody else is not okay so for me be what do you call it consistent

you want in Malay then all the way in Malay I have no problem with that but if you have half half you know over here in Malay then you go into the university it should be in English and don't talk about promotion of uh of professors and associate professors if you're not cited in the international journal. Forget it.

Okay. How you going to do that? So a lot of those some of my friends who are you know they they grew up with the Bahasa Malaysia thing and they can only write for the the local. And I said what's wrong with the local? You know knowledge is knowledge. If you want to talk philosophy and it is translated into Malayos, a lot of my writings uh are also in Dewan Dewan Buddha and and things like that because in order to get the Malay to think, you have to create the language for it and also the the terminology for it. Okay, for them to actually think. Now you may say about

English, okay, I understand that. But Sam in order truthfully to actually bring the Malay out you need all the language of Malayu to actually have all these things but it doesn't happen because their ambassad doesn't do a lot of translation and they also are very restrictive or certain certain thing like communism certain things like other religion why why you we want to have Bible cannot be in Malay you know even though it's okay in Sabah and Sawa to be in Malay but these are the these are the stumbling block you want to have I'm all in. But you also have to go all

in. But at the moment, they're not all in. They're half half. Okay. So problem might as well then turn into English. My my point on that is because quickly I want to say just this

is because because and that's where I see the problem is at the fundamental part the primary and secondary because the minute you limit you are limiting access to knowledge that is available worldwide

you become an issular nation and a country that wants to be comparative globally has to be uh uh world uh uh have a worldly outlook. You see the thing is when I was uh even English you know one of the problem I faced was exactly what you just said

because the teachers had the problem they were trying to translate uh English into Malay and having difficulty to teach because they used to teach in English

right the previous year only. Mhm. But it was actually quite lucky for me because the textbooks were basically still in English relatively speaking. Okay. It was uh translated but we kept the terminologies.

Yeah. All right. Which allows for for for people like us to go overseas and seamlessly uh get into public university. M okay I mean you went to Wisconsin

uh University of Wisconsin I went to the University of Florida I think these are one of the top public universities in the country in in in the US you know if if my memory I know that my school is uh top five

uh public schools okay so it's not easy to get in right think about this and I've said this again and again and again Now here we are, two of us play boys,

we are going against a kota system that has a limited space to go into a state funded public university. Mhm. You got you had to take uh SAT.

Yeah. Their their examination. I had to take SAT their examination and compete with not just Americans but compete against a limited number for foreign students. We had a negative kota system working against us,

right? Why did it work for us? Because our fundamental education did an excellent job for us and we put in the work for it. Mhm. Okay. So that's one point I I would not want to people to understand

because that's why I advocate that actually we have done something fundamentally wrong with our education especially when we are going into a scientific world.

Mhm. Today AI is going to take over. Mhm. Okay. It's becoming very more technical. All right. There will be services sector work but you know you need to be able to um to handle a global marketplace

and the global marketplace like it or not it's not Chinese yet. Mhm. Okay. And I don't know where that is going. Knowledge you want to publish like you said

in publication in science you want to do your referral everything is in English. M okay even the Russians are are publishing in English Europeans are also publishing in English even India but they have thousand years of of of of uh of scientific

uh this one so having said that here's my point to you I want I want I want I want your opinion right I think there's lack of leadership in terms of re reforming what we we have today because like you M

um you can argue either way. We are people who argue. Mhm. All right. What would you do? I What would you do if you were to reform? Because I for me

I would take out religion from the public sector and I would keep it at home. Mhm. Okay. Or you have a specific school that parents pay for. Mhm.

Because why should we be paying uh Malaysian taxpayer for a single religion education? Mhm. I think that's very unIslamic. Mhm.

You know. Mhm. Uh and not am if you ask me. All right. Then I think the leadership instead of telling people um you know from a negative standpoint

is to tell people this is the way we move our society forward. And be comparative globally. Mhm. How do you see from your standpoint having been in this profession for that long?

Mhm. Yeah. Well, uh there are two perspective to this. It's either you want to talk in the quote unquote fantasy world or you want to talk in the real world because uh talking about it in the real world have to take into consideration the so-called politics of the time. Okay. So the politics of the time will never allow to do what you set out to do. That's why in the podcast Masa with Nick Nazmi he asked the same question. He said, "If you were appointed minister of education, what would you do?" Same question you asked me. And I answered him. I said, "Well, first of all, I'd quit." I said,

"I like that one. I'm sorry, guys. Okay, go on." Shut up because I said you said education ministry of education is a quack meer filled with uh minefield anywhere you step is going to explode. Okay, that's number one. Number two, it's so big with 400,000 teachers.

What do you mean by just what you said just now? You mentioned the word taking out religion. You'll have party Islam simulation on top of you and you have immediate change of government. My my standing joke is that before a minister of education makes any change the minister of education will be the first to be changed okay in anyone so people talk about Fina not being very good and all that okay bring in someone they will get stuck within the quayer also that's why my solution always with in my public talk no we develop outside of the public school meaning the

international school meaning the private schools you you have your vernacular schools. So if we can try to to to to make this better, you know, let's say the international school and the vernacular school a bit more than with what you say. You don't have to deal with religion. You see, I'm a practical man. Okay. I don't want to.

But wouldn't the education department still step in and impose on the No, no, no, no. In the in the vernacular schools and all that, as I said, the the question of as you point out just now about religion. Now, I have two perspective for religion. one do it right or don't do it you know do what like what you said

my perspective is actually religion should be the domain of the family yeah that's why I said you want to talk fantasy or you want talk real politics we had that before I know that's where in the fantasy world at the moment now people say well what do you mean fantasy you we can just make it happen it it will not happen because the the the the the demographic of politics okay is like that you you go anywhere religion will be center center stage whatever it is from 2030. This is not my my my what do you call stand in terms of me uh uh uh wanting it. I probably want something more akin to

yours but I'm more practical by looking at what do you have to deal with. And that's why I said I don't want to be the minister of education. I would like to be the minister of higher education because the higher education you can do a lot of things within the uh uh the uh uh the curriculums and all these things with the MQAs MQ well don't get me talking about MQA that that's another thing that is also a big problem you're not letting the university be free to actually experiment with what you know I know where you're coming from so that one another podcast okay but the point

here is that we need to uh uh empower or en enhance and and you know our private citizenship and all that uh giving money I said uh let's say the problem of unity international school don't have many Malay Malay Malay students okay uh like my my grandson school they have all Malay student so why don't we we we bring them together in camps we we provide money we provide this and things like that we bring them closer all the things we do oursel we don't have to wait for the the politics of Ano Ibrahim or the politics of Mahati or the politics of Huid don't care okay we have

our own politics and that is where Bach Minister Fuller says don't fight the establishment create something of the establishment until it eclipse the establishment so don't spend energy trying to change the the the thing that is going to waste your time okay put anybody there at the Ministry of Education it will not change believe me okay so we need to concentrate on the side. Okay. And this side is the one that later on will grow up and eclipse and become the new politics because if not we spend all our life trying to change something that I don't see that

there is any way for it to change. So I'm a practical man state there that has already entrenched itself. Not only the deep state, it's also the society that has been growing up with the conservatism. For instance, like let's say my my my friends, okay, I went to the Do you think everybody went into Islamic reform? No. Only probably about uh a few percent. Okay. But many of my friend they went to pubs, you know, drink alcohol and all this kind of thing. Yeah. Not they're bad. They just young. Okay. When they came back, they made their money still they didn't study

about Islam and all that. When I met them after they have retired, they are all And I said, "Look, why if now you're talking about Islam, why don't you read this book, you know, about democracy and Islam or Islam with moderation." I said, "No time. We have to spend our time in prayers and and also going to the mosques. These are the ones that that that that frequent the pups, you know, and they are also another group that has formed this conservatism and they will vote for conservatism. So this is what's happening. the children of the people who went through Islamic reform are

sending their children uh to to to schools that are not in the public school not mixing with others just because they believe that is the way. So we've created a system that actually also

so it's also part of the society you know. Well I mean that is that is a creature of the system that the governance and that we instituted. Yeah. Whatever it is it spill over. Okay. And

yeah that's the that's the whether it's intended or not but that's the consequence of and and a lot of people say like Rafi Ram is trying oh we are Islam we are reformist party we have to reform let's see if you are the prime minister see who you going to work with when when you be become head of your party you have to work with people like Barisan national you have to work with these people how how are you going to bring change unless it is the hard way of you know uh uh slowly changing mindsets and all that it's it's not it's not really that possible that's why I go on the

idea that we need to change and change it ourself away from the politics and that is how we need to have our own way touch it's um it's it's it's it's uh I don't disagree with you

uh completely on what you just said with respect to having a parallel system actually that's what I call it a parallel Malaysia correct uh But then again the the uh pane uh I think we are underestimating the changes that has uh that that has come

uh to not just uh globally but also now in Malaysia. Mhm. Which is people have access to information. Sure. Like nothing ever

you know um just the way we are doing podcasting today. Mhm. Right. uh never happened. Uh uh I think nobody think of this

five years ago. Yeah. All right. So uh but it is something from uh from an economic standpoint as well because uh I do look at it um from an economic standpoint. Imagine the budget, the federal budget spending uh on an unproductive and actually regressive education system in my opinion.

Okay. And that's a huge problem and that's obviously going to land at the political table. Okay. And that's where we are now more and more likely uh having hung parliaments and uh and and and brokerage.

That's right. Right. Yeah. Okay. But I think so that's why I say go peral. Well, you it'll never end. I I I think there will come a day when people will just start throwing out the politicians. Okay.

Uh but then again, how and in what form? Uh I'm I don't know. Uh I'm I don't dare to predict. If you say that people throwing out politician who are they going to have let's say you and I we form a political party right now and we win 30 40 seats, we still have to uh uh to work with these other parties. Well, I do believe one thing though at the end of the day, right?

Um I think like any society um uh like any society leadership actually um changed the society. Okay. Uh I think for all that uh myself and say hammered him in one of our podcast, Mahade had the real opportunity to actually change the society for the better. Um because it takes what you know

it takes guts, grit and actually charisma you know and really the intent to change it because he took us from agrarian to industrial.

Okay. He deregulated uh uh uh what do you call uh business. So in essence you can do both. You can do it slower in the public sector.

So you have a parallel system like what you're saying. Okay. But there must be I think a leadership that is willing to see change because I do this as well when um

Okay. Okay. I'll stop you right there. Sure. When you talk about Mahhat, it was a different time. He had everything under his authority. Okay. And there was no internet. You want to change the way that you said just now?

Yes. We have to use the Singapore model or the China model. Okay. The idea of freedom of speech has to be curtailed and then you just have to because Sam whatever you do and and and and even if you say about history the the the the social media is going to drown you. Okay. And the problem with uh why our society if you want it to be changed then you you have to flood it with this kind of discourse especially from the universities but universities are not doing they're still writing papers and all

they also got problem with the law and also the act university and whatever correct university that's what I mean yeah so so that is the the the the situation where I think we need to look at the idea of democracy the idea of freedom of speech which I always say wisdom to speak rather than total freedom and where Singapore was successful uh even though before the the the social uh digital uh uh media and and yeah they're a small country and all that but and they also have their infrastructure ready in order to so-cal guide their their society. So I think

even though uh many people say well it's not very attractive because you don't have this freedom of expression but I've seen the freedom of expression it's burning us down. It's burning us in the sense that uh you have people commenting on policies where they don't have any knowledge of it. They don't have any any experience of being politician and yet they have 100,000 viewers. So so this is also another another problem Sam that we nobody encountered. You said just now nobody thought that one day that you know you'll be so powerful that you could you know control uh the the

influence people through the social media. Elvin Tooffler said that 40 years ago already with the internet revolution in future shock. Okay. We are in that in that realm. So so so I' been looking at this and I cannot see the way out. Any political party that comes in also will be bogged down. So the way has to be entrepreneurship, people in business like you having the resources, having the experience and people in education but outside of the public education, the universities, private universities, private schools and all that. And if I said myself, if I

were to open the university, I like to open it outside of Malaysia but online, you know, so that I don't have to go through any accreditation of the uh the the local accredititation. I I'd set up my own accredititation with experts from all over the world, you know, with all these online meetings and things like that. And that is the only way that we can form education, not just about technology. Sam, you said just now about technology, but I believe education must also contain how do you live with the people.

I I find that the humanities and all that need to be stronger the arts and the culture. You know, when we go to when we were in the states, we I I I don't know today, but in the 80s,

I think the the education what I was most uh thankful for was it was quite a holistic education. Yeah. Yeah. the humanities and all you have to take it. Yes. Um and you learn about other cultures. Uh and there were no um I mean if if if I were to if if there is any I mean I think I think we've become so insular

our our youth does not even know how human civilization actually correct occur which means that they cannot think uh because they they cannot think of how uh how we come out how how development happens. Okay.

So it they are very easily influenced. So that's why the the the the topic of what we are talking today I I really focus on actually the primary and the secondary because by the time you get to university

it is just to prepare you to I to go to work to a certain extent prof is to get to work but you are also ready because you have have had this worldly thinking embedded in your brain

to accept uh a more holistic education. Okay. The way you just uh point out just now. So, but so primary and secondary education to me um is where the problem lies if you ask me.

Yeah. But solve it outside of the government and the and you cannot it's just not possible to do it within the public school system. the the pro the I I I I I'm I'm going to open it up for comments from

it's not possible. Okay. The politics won't allow it. We have I even doubt whether we have the educated people in the ministry of uh uh education, bro. Now, now now we're getting into the politics of it,

right? So, so that's the thing. So, so, so I I do have a different point of view on the politics. uh I do think it is changeable. I don't think it is changeable within uh say a single term.

Uh but I I do feel that actually if if we have the right um leadership Yeah. You said just now I I I heard you. Yeah. Leadership with guts with charisma and how many votes will guts and charisma get you? You know how many votes will those thing after doing that let's say you become the prime minister and you have your guts and courage if you were to be able to uh proceed to four or five years in a single term you'd be damn lucky now we have the backdoor solution of uh sheratan move and all that and in the middle of the term you could change so that is where guts and and and what

you call charisma is going to get you I think an early change I I think I think uh My only uh my only counter to that is I think the world is really changing and I think what we are seeing is people the probability is this

and um so whatever it is in summary you're saying we need to change I think but it must come from the top down the the I'm saying no you had to go parallel that's basically what the the podcast today

I mean I mean yeah I think your summary is it got to be parallel, right? I'm not disagreeing with that. Um because um uh I see your logic.

Okay. Um of it being uh being uh uh a workable system. However, um the economics of it um uh in order to to make a substantive change within two terms, let me call it two terms, one generation M

okay because you know what you and I um basically are evidence of a one generation change our parents or a lot of our parents

uh were poor uh at best lower middle class right none of them were in industry right um all of a sudden their children are now running you know manufacturing and services.

So that was done in one generation. Mhm. Okay. Um the the thing is I believe it is possible. uh I believe that the change is going to be gradual to a certain extent

but I think uh there is a culmination of forces that are going to u that going to change the system the the the way people vote

the way coalitions are going to form okay I don't know how it's going to I be honest that I don't have a complete answer. No, democracy doesn't work uh if you want to have those kind of change that you want.

Well, they did say one thing about democracy though. Um democracy only works when you have an informed populace. But if your populace has been degraded over the last four decades

and always playing the victim mentality or the superior mentality, one plays victim mentality. Uhhuh. the non-Muslim the other place the supreme supremacist mentality. Well, unfortunately, we also

eliminate democracy, then we can have talk about change. We we also have uh the majority playing both victim and supremacy cards, you know. Um so summarily what I'm trying to say is that I just don't see how we can do it in terms of how uh the present situation in in politics are. Okay. Okay, I've I've looked into my crystal ball in the next few years in the next few decades. it is it is not going to change much and that's why I have been always advocating not successfully at the moment with the parallel way because if you want real change then you need the

parallel way and we can get it because what's to stop us you said uh money I don't think so we have a lot of people with money what we want is people who believe and say look okay let's have this kind of education we don't need the public education in order for our children to survive the world is already uh the the marketplace for them. Why do we need all these MQAs and all these accreditations and stuff like that? What for? It's all local and when you are targeting the world, why do you need a local uh accreditation and things like that?

Okay. What they say the test of the pudding is the tasting of it, right? Okay. So if any if I open a school and my uh students can can do all kinds of entrepreneurial work and and and also fit into the industry, what more do you want? Okay. What more do you want? What do why why all this standardization? Okay. As an educator, standardization is the thing that kills uh creativity, innovation.

Well, you know, uh P, I'm just doing a quick check for your information on the on on on this is our research department. Okay. Uh our federal budget

in 2023 was 388 billion. Mhm. Right. Our education budget is 55.6 billion. Okay. Um so what are we looking at? 55 let's say 56 divide 388 you know. So we are talking about 14%

of the federal budget. Okay. there is no sector um I mean the the bigger sector or or the biggest single sector which I'm I'm one of the biggest single sector because if you talk about electrical or electronics is such an amalgamation right but if you talk about oil and gas

is 20% of the GDP okay if you look at uh uh so if we are looking at about 14% of the federal budget okay to overhaul All

that's a huge amount of money that we are if we are putting into a system that is that has actually number one you and I agree created this schism of racial and religious uh u uh separation

and and and and and uh polarities. Okay. Um 55 billion. Okay. So my advocacy is is I do not disagree with you that we can create a parallel system

but I think the impact of that even if you get 100% of what you wanted okay I don't think the money is there okay uh for primary and secondary education

to make a dent in without actually the government itself uh making an effort to reform the education system. Now I believe in this

uh I believe there is uh there is a way forward from a political system. That's another podcast al together. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's another podcast alto together. I I think we can we can talk about that uh in another time. Um I think we have illuminated quite a bit in terms of our previous um how we are contrasting what we have today and what we have

now and therefore where are we missing so to speak can touch you know do you want to have a a final word on um on uh on uh on what do you wish on your wish list apart from your parallel? Yeah, my wish list on education if it were to happen

right will have to be at from the university down to the people because at the university I disagree with you when you say that uh you start with the foundation and then only at the university you're just talking about going to work no my life or my perspective completely changed when I went to the university so regardless of whatever foundation I have I think uh of course my foundation was English and western based and all that it become very easy but I can see that uh if you change the university into uh producing uh uh people more than just industrial tools okay and I and and I spoke about

uh uh uh uh uh what I call a uh uh 60 2020 20 where 60% only for your core engineering subject 20% for you to have multiple subjects and 20% where you engage with society if you can create these people these people will become come the next batch of leaders, next batch of uh voters and next uh batch of parents and generation that will have a different perspective and also the universities will be teaching the next batch of teachers because that's where they come from. So unless and until you can have that that that filter to go down uh into the system, I don't see how

it's going to change. I have always had the idea that politics cannot change society. It's only the university but problem here is that our public university now is still industry based number one and still political based with this all this race thing and then we add on to it a layer of accredititation uh the MQA. I have high hopes of private universities but then private universities now are the shadow of a shadow of the public university.

Really? Yes. Because they want to be like the public university. Why is that? because that's what the MQA says you have to be standardization. So therefore the politics still impacts even the parallel education system.

That's why I said that we we but it's still possible uh to have uh you know and also the private universities have a lot of the uh uh retired professors coming into into their their their realm to uh to govern you know uh to to govern the universities. But here is the the situation uh within the the private universities. I can see that there is a way that you could have a different pedagogy, a different way of teaching, a different way of spirit within the the construct in the public university is so much political control and also race based control that uh it's difficult to

change. So it's still possible uh to do it but no p private unities is thinking in that direction. All they're thinking about is how to make ends meet in terms of money and all that. My chairman was talking about prof in the in the in the overseas. If you have private universities doing very good, then you have the endowment system and the government can give some endowment like what America doing and so it stands on on on its own. Okay. So we don't really have to depend on on the uh what do they call it the uh uh the account books uh so much because the university

is more than just uh producing workers is also producing the next batch of humanity right okay so so so but but we not doing that we're treating universities like corporate bodies making money and so so that's how the the the culture is uh is going to go on and on and on if we have a politics that agrees to give 50% endowment uh then I think uh we could we could change that of course then that you have some political party saying that that one is another another matter altogether so that's why I said that uh number one it has to start from the university okay and number two it needs

also a kind of a parallel uh idea of changing the country not this idea that it must come from the politics uh you uh appointing certain political party to lead that one miracle if it if it happens that we can get the way that we want but the reality is the one that you are in control with divine uh uh intervention that one I don't deal with it that one is something something else but I I don't see the way out in terms of politics and I've looked at it it cannot happen no change cannot realistically happen unless we spearhead it with the uh social media with the internet with our own finances

as much as we can have but more with our own vision and willpower that one we can do it okay I think uh we have damn this conversation could go on another hour and I don't want I think we we we probably come at uh imp at a impass

impass to a certain extent. Um and um it doesn't matter. This is the whole point of a podcast like this, which is to have a conversation and and differing opinions into the conversation. Um I do believe that uh that that a parallel system uh for me when I look at it what you just said to me yes I agree with you that uh at the tertiary part

uh that is also a change that uh then can funnel the educators and administrators to re to actually reform the system. Yeah. All right. So I'm I'm not disagreeing on that.

Um my contention is that I believe that there is going to be a gradual revolution uh in terms of voting patterns and how politics is going is being changed

within the next two decades. You know uh at the very at the very least if not one if not within two terms only. Mhm. uh I have we have seen in our lifetime the the the second part of our lifetime

nobody thought that the two3 majority would ever disappear. Yeah. Right. So it was an impossibility. Mhm. Okay. And I think with every technological change

the uh the cycle for change become shorter and shorter. Mhm. So that's my closing point on on on that. Uh I want to thank you very much, Professor Tajin.

Uh good friend of mine who uh I always argue with him and we always enjoy it. So we hope that you all enjoy. Um come again to uh and uh please let's let's get all this kind of conversation going. Yeah.

Yeah. so that uh you know we get it out into into the public arena. Um please like, subscribe so that you know we get more people to be to to have all this thinking into the atmosphere. All

right. Thank you. Thank you so much my friend. Okay.