# CONVERSATION BERSAMA NIK NAZMI (Episode 107)
Published: 2026-08-14T06:44:23+00:00

## Summary
Former minister Nik Nazmi joins Sam Saad following his split from PKR to discuss why he and Rafizi Ramli launched their new party, Bersama. They debate strategies for moving past Malaysia's entrenched political dinosaur class, testing grassroots ground strength, dismantling patronage structures, and crafting credible economic and energy policies.

## Key Takeaways
- [1:54] Nik Nazmi explains that PKR lost its founding ideals once power was achieved, leaving broken reform pledges as the final straw for his departure.
- [11:29] Bersama contested state elections early to stress-test ground-level party operations rather than relying solely on social media and podcast air support.
- [20:42] Nik Nazmi pitches Bersama as a modern, digital-first party built to break free from the aging political oligarchy dominating Malaysian politics.
- [28:47] Changing demographic trends will force traditional non-Malay fortress seats to embrace progressive Malay leaders to prevent communal polarization.
- [41:01] Bersama adopts a lean organizational structure and gamified merit points system to prevent traditional division-level warlordism and backroom jockeying.
- [54:29] Both speakers agree that concepts like 'Ketuanan Melayu' are modern political fabrications that ultimately stifle genuine Malay competitiveness.
- [1:08:24] Sam Saad criticizes rigid GLC mandates like Petronas's vessel retirement limits, arguing bureaucratic policies actively undermine maritime and energy supply chains.

## Chapters
0:00 Breaking Away from PKR and Anwar
8:18 Testing Bersama in State Elections
20:42 Recruiting Outsiders and Dismantling Dinosaur Politics
28:00 Demographics and Non-Malay Voting Realities
40:11 Preventing Warlordism with Lean Party Design
48:15 Debating Fiscal Policy, Taxes, and Affirmative Action
54:29 Debunking Ketuanan Melayu and Energy Realities
1:07:44 GLC Bureaucracy, Oil and Gas, and Open Governance

## Transcript
[0:00] You know, I was never really a supporter of Anoa Ibrahim when he was deputy prime minister. Uh but what inspired me was again that ground swell of multi-racial support, bringing together civil society activists, um Islamic movements, bringing together, you know, people, ordinary people in a way who um um suddenly, you know, wanted to be part of this and I always uh yearn for a multi-racial movement. Okay. So later on uh yes I joined the party. I was young. I was it was 2001. I was 19. Um yeah I was idealistic and all that. Uh and I then later on came back from UK left my

[0:41] scholarship paid it back worked for Anoir. Um and then became a candidate and everything. Um and uh yeah I got to know him more and more. uh I realized as I grew older that you know that idolized version of him you know is of course very uh different but at that time you know he was saying the right things you know he uh you know he formed a multi-racial party which was very rare because I believe that multi-racial party is important but it also should be Malay for it to work out in Malaysia um you know he was talking about dismantling race-based policies uh

[1:16] oppressive laws while in government in Slango and then at federal government. Um yeah, you know, we we realized that there were imperfections here and there, but it it felt that he was still committed to the cause. In fact, you know, we were running a lot of things when he was in prison. U of course the first phase 1998 to 2004, uh I was very junior in the movement, but later on from 2015 to 2018, um you know, we were running things, we were recruiting people into the party and all that. So by the time I became a minister um you know PKR was bigger than Ana. I

[1:54] mean it was about the ordinary people the ordinary uncles pachi machi that I met uh and you know the friendship and and and it was about keeping that alive right so it was more about that more than an ibrahim you know um until the point that you know I saw that uh one by one you know he did not fulfill now with without that excuse because he has that power he is prime minister um and and I felt that that was the last straw Welcome back ladies and gentlemen. This is the Gutshot podcast. I'm Shamsul Sam back from detention. Today we have a beggar of an episode with you. We

[2:34] welcome Saara Nick Nazby to Gutshot. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. You're welcome. May I call you Dasby? Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. Um I hope this will be one of many. Um uh our Nick Nazmi is uh a a young 44 years old. I didn't realize it. He's been in politics for so long. Um you know, and he's the co-leader with Rafi Ramli of the newly fledged party Bama. Uh he's a former minister of the natural resources and environmental sustainability from 2002 to 2025 and the former member of parliament of stawanga. So, uh let's uh let's get to that. Um let's let's

[3:24] address and get to the point. Uh Nazi, uh the elephant in the room. Um I'm not much of a politician. I'm a businessman. And it bothers me a great deal because usually as a businessman, what we do, we walk into a room and we size up the room in approximately 5 minutes. and we could basically tell within that 5 minutes who's going to be the jerk in the room. Okay. So, it took you a long time in PKR uh and working with Ano Ibrahim. This is quite a breakup. Uh could you please address why this has led to a breakup and uh what took you so long?

[4:13] Okay. Uh I think in our first conversation we met a few days ago right when I explained to you my family background. So uh you know I come from my dad was in fact uh past sympathizer

[4:28] um and I grew up with very anti-establishment sort of views and um you know I was never really a supporter of Anoa Ibraim when he was deputy prime minister. uh but when the incident happened in 1998 uh and I I was slow to the cause in fact

[4:47] right uh but what inspired me was again that ground swell of multi-racial support bringing together civil society activists um Islamic movements bringing together you know people ordinary people in a way who um um suddenly you know wanted to be part of this and I always uh yearn for a multi-racial movement okay so later on uh yes I joined the party. I was young. I was it was 2001. I was 19. Um yeah I was idealistic and all that. Uh and I then later on came back from UK left my scholarship paid it back worked for Anoir um and then became a candidate and everything. Um and uh yeah I got to know

[5:31] him more and more. uh I realized as I grew older that you know that idolized version of him you know is of course very uh different but at that time you know he was saying the right things you know he uh you know he formed a multi-racial party

[5:46] which was very rare because I believe that multi-racial party is important but it also should be Malay for it to work out in Malaysia um you know he was talking about dismantling race-based policies uh oppressive laws while in government in Slango and then at federal government. Um, yeah, you know, we we realized that there were imperfections here and there, but it it felt that he was still committed to the cause. In fact, you know, we were running a lot of things when he was in prison. Um, of course, the first phase 1998 to 2004, uh, I was very junior in the movement,

[6:21] but later on from 2015 to 2018, um, you know, we were running things, we were recruiting people into the party and all that. So by the time I became a minister um you know PKR was bigger than Anwa. I mean it was about the ordinary people the ordinary uncles pi machi that I met uh and you know the friendship and and and it was about keeping that alive right so it was more about that more than an ibrahim you know um until the point that you know I saw that uh one by one you know he did not fulfill now with without the excuse because he has that power he is prime minister um and and I

[7:03] felt that that was the last straw Okay. Um that's an interesting background and I could understand it being young and being swept with the movement and actually if you were to ask me uh a lot of people has been saying that that that PKR was a lot better prior to Anoir returning

[7:25] you know um I think uh if you don't mind if you know Gutshot we are very conversational rather than an interview type of thing because uh we we we find that gets a lot out for our audience.

[7:40] Um then I would say even the use of uh like when I was in detention the use of sedition act which was promised to be abolished that never got abolished and it was used to actually the widest net to uh to ins snare people like oursel who are

[8:00] just u providing natural free speech. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was a big deal to us. And uh for me personally, it was the last straw. Yeah. Uh and I think uh going into that, let let me ask moving forward. Let's move forward. Yeah.

[8:18] Right. Y um I would say I'm pretty personally uh quite uh encouraged by the by by by Barama coming out. However, um I must say I was a little bit disappointed with your um with with with your foray into um the state elections.

[8:41] Yep. Um well, we had some criticism myself and say on your uh agenda. Mhm. Uh I didn't get any backlash from you guys. We we thought it was a constructive criticism.

[8:55] Y and I hope you took it as such. Uh uh it's always good to get a different point of view, right? Y yeah. But um the PRN the the I I don't in my opinion it is secondary to the parliamentary at this stage of the movement of uh Bama and I felt that you guys were too thin on the ground. uh you could have focused on uh a small blob of uh later member of parliament bringing up real people that you have identified.

[9:32] Y um not a big fan of your online system. Mhm. Um not really not a big fan of you coming into the adon participation which in my opinion seems to be uh a bit haphazard and uh less prepared. Yep. Can you address that? uh I beg to defer because I think um yeah because I think one of the things is uh there's always this uh gap between theory and practice right and and uh one of the things that I think um I I saw or you know we've always um for example going into the formation of basama we had very long meetings in fact uh Rafi and myself you know do we really want to do this uh is

[10:18] the route you know is it going back to PKR is it giving up politic politics and that's as just you know forget about it and make money or whatever or is it forming something new. Um one of the things that we discovered from surveys is that there's a huge disgruntlement disillusionment not just with BH but also with BN and also with PN since 2022. Um even even with BN's recent wins actually it's relative. It's just that the collapse in support for PH has been immense that you know BN looks strong right u but I would say that people are really tired of this merrygoround of

[10:55] this coalition you know you you attack the AP then you get in bed with the AP and vice versa you attack ANO and all that right um you say Saka and then you put the Pakao in place and then you also suck for example so those things are things that that turn off uh voters so we say okay then there might be room for a new party. So it was done very uh diligently very or uh organized in in how to find that out and how we form the party. The Joho state election was announced I think within the first week of the formation of Basama

[11:29] right um uh it wasn't ideal. It was not ideal. Very far from ideal but we did feel uh and the initial numbers were uh better. Not to say that we would win, but it was much more promising than what happened on the ground, but I think we had to go in because you had to find the benchmark one, right? I mean, you can talk about theory and all that. Um, but being in politics for so long, I always know that is always there. We have had many good ideas with regards to political parties, multi-racial political parties. If you remember uh I mean just in recent history Z Ibrahim Zakita of course then

[12:08] later on he went to a few political parties after PK Amno PKR uh what uh DAP Kita uh DAP uh AMO and now pass for example but then you have what um you know you have uh party banks Malaysia you have so many other parties that that have been formed um over the years right but what is important also is how do you actually measure the ground strength right so we felt that at that time uh and I think you know you like to read about geopolitics and all that uh in terms of Rafi especially myself we have good uh air support we have good podcast we are on we are always in media we have good

[12:51] social media accounts following and all that but we need ground troops right so we need to go to Joo in order to build that up and it takes time so our concern is that If we didn't go to Joo at that time, it always it would look good on on paper. Yeah. Because our membership was not bad for a young party. Now it's about 30,000. Even then it was uh not bad. But you know, organizing things on the ground always, you know, it takes there's always that gap between reality and theory and reality. So we found a lot of where the weaknesses were. uh but now as a result by identifying our

[13:27] candidates um we actually use AI uh and we do actually hate hunt it's not that we know expect we do hate hunt but we just expect everyone who agree then they have to just submit it just just like you know just a proper form we have to do vetting and everything but some of these candidates that were actually you know just uh from sort of crowdsource um they have done very well I mean relatively and they have continued to work on the ground I think that's very important Because this means that when we go to Joho for the general election, we already have people moving on the

[14:00] ground right now. People who are doing programs, meeting voters, people and our flag is already out there. Uh it's not easy, you know. That's why this in Malaysia u you know these logos, symbols still matter. That's why BN has never changed. Uh the

[14:17] it's branding. It's branding. It's something we in business understand very well. Yes. So that's why for us is to put the canchill to the voters for the first time because there were people who some of them some of our candidates are former PH right so some of these old Chinese uncles say yeah I voted for you I voted for PH because he didn't realize that the this is now under a new banner so and that takes time so that's why we have to go to the ground uh even in Joho we skip Milanis was a bit complicated as well uh just out of that preservation of resources but also we we We we you know

[14:52] it was very sensitive. If we are seen to be the cause of the fall of the PH state government, it can be very um some people might be it might be controversial and all that but we are in luck. Right. Right. But the second part to your question is uh briefly uh I do believe that this uh bringing uh down uh you know being able to crowdsource talents to run for elections uh it brings us closer to the public. We've done that before and we are able to get really good candidates who otherwise of course basama now is a young party it's actually quite easy you know to run in the sense that we are

[15:26] very thin but I when I was in PKR and it was very different when I came in 2008 I was able to contest because there were not enough good candidates in 2008 and I just happened to run at the right time you know I was I struck the lottery but uh today PKR you know it's such a old established party with lots of money and all that. So if you are an ordinary talented person, a professional like yourself, I know you wouldn't be interested in PK right now, but I'm saying that it was difficult because there were so many warlords and structures and all that. So the idea of

[16:00] crowdsourcing for talents to run uh we actually did that even in PKR when Rafi was running the election department. But we we now is much more pertinent is that we are able to attract uh people who might otherwise be left out of the system. uh but that doesn't mean that we don't hit hard that we don't talk to uh you know people with capabilities and talents to run as well. Obviously we do uh but this is merely a mechanism about uh sourcing for broad numbers of talents.

[16:29] Okay, that's interesting. That is an interesting point of view. In fact, you've answered quite a bit. I'm quite impressed if I may say so myself. uh coming from somebody who's uh who's run a few corporation you know it's seriously mean it's not very easy to impress me uh you know with all humility you know it's very hard to be humble but I try okay um I I I I find that actually that is a very uh okay that's that's a sinky put um I and just moving on since you mentioned about head hunting. Okay. Um we are a very small country. Let's take it like this. I was

[17:19] talking to uh some of my friends in the state of Florida and in state of Texas cuz I have investment there and I have association there. Um and um uh and we were talking about the politics. I mean they're going through a midterm elections at the moment, right? Um and they just found out about my case you know can you believe this my case has gone out but you know they were just trying to figure out but they are so busy with the mid terms but uh I mean talking about head hunting I mean our talent pool real good talent pools is extremely small we are 32 million 35

[18:02] million people usually you're talking about 1% of the 1% right and therefore the head I think it's extremely important. Okay. I mean for lack of uh example, let's take myself for example, right? I've never been interested in politics. I really don't like Malaysian politics because uh I find it like what you mentioned, it's just a chess game, you know. nothing will ever change. Okay. So actually if Basama is going to make a difference it's got to really make a changing change and that will come at parliament really in my opinion I don't is not going to make much difference you

[18:54] know if you were to ask me parliament first I don't second right but I do agree with you that your attempt at uh putting the groundwork uh with the experiment on adul is not just interesting but actually makes sense. Okay. Um so you shut me up on that P. Uh but okay so in terms of head hunting I do look at I do look at where I am in my particular position. Uh I don't know my I don't know how much you know about my background but I think from Malay coming from a no uh from Akasadat uh very much a lower middle class family uh I think I've done very well for myself. I've run two corporate

[19:51] companies. I built my own business with 100,000 ringit. Uh I saved the Commonwealth teams in 1998. Um and uh you know podana petroleum petra energy are legacies that I uh am very proud of that is it still stands today uh I can't turn around a company so come to what we all day I mean I asked myself if I was in your position as a corporate guy really headunting is extremely important looking for talent is extremely important uh with all humility let me ask you a You see a talent as I am. Okay. Teach me why I should join Basamo or I should run on the opening for BAM. Do a pitch. Sure.

[20:42] Basamo is convince me. Yeah. That I should be somebody who should look at Basamo as a platform. Yeah. That I could change the country. Yeah. So I will put it this way. Right. Bersamo is started by if you look focus on Rafi and myself are people who have experience in multi-racial progressive politics in the country but uh also uh also understand that we can't use the old models or rely on failed politicians uh or disappointing politicians from the past the boomers uh anymore right so I think it's time for us to do something new, to use the digital tools that we have. Um, as you said, I'm not

[21:34] old in Malaysian politics, but yet I'm still considered as a spring chicken because we have so many dinosaurs, right? I mean, you started when you were about 22, I believe.

[21:46] Uh, I a young man. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not in Malaysia. I'm still defined as a young politician because 44, you know, Anoa is nearly 80. Uh, Hadi is nearly 80. Mujid is nearly 80. They're all the same age. I think 79. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get a point, right? It's okay. And they still I'll give you that for the moment. I alter to the Okay.

[22:09] So, my point is that we are Yeah. I mean, you know, Rafi and I will say, you know, I don't want if at 80 years old, right, I don't want to be doing this. If God gives me that time in life, I want to do I've sacrificed all my life for politics, right? I felt everything. I mean, short of being prime minister, the rest I've occupied all the positions. So, uh I lock as well. So, uh I think for me it's just that this is our shot. uh bur summer is something that we want to build. We are really committed and the fact that we are starting from scratch it means that we want to build it in a way that we

[22:49] believe it it's not opportunistic right if we do believe that it has a big potential not in the long term even in the midterm but even if it takes longer I Rafi will be happy to pass this on you know we have a lot of young uh yesterday as at the time of recording we announced seven uh leaders for the party or seven um uh spokesperson for the party. We have a lot of young people coming in multi-racial you know people who have had good jobs as well people like yourself. So we are happy to pass this on to that generation once we feel that our time is up right. So I think this is

[23:28] you know this is you are involved in business but summer is like uh Facebook way back in 2006 you know you were to have that share uh the Facebook share then you you before it gets expensive you know what I call I mean I'm I'm I like to quote Elon Musk on this government is the ultimate form of corporation I truly believe in it. Yeah. Um I think uh okay I get what you mean. Maybe I add a bit of that. Actually uh when I cross my mind I told myself I'm going to make this leap because I think at the age where I am uh I personally can fund my own campaign. That's not a problem

[24:13] whatsoever for me. uh more to it that actually how do we find similar candidates you know uh I could do for myself but how do I find similar candidates to do a block that will make real difference

[24:32] you know that will actually ally ourself with for example Sambach and Sraa you know to have something totally new you know um and uh personally For me actually uh I'm 62 years old. Uh because of the fast first pass post system that we have I cannot see myself going beyond three terms.

[24:59] In fact beyond three terms is one term too many. Um if if as you say things can be achieved in the midterm or even with the short term I would only limit myself to two term. In fact, I was actually quite angry about the uh about the performative Kabuki theater that was done in parliament for the two-term uh prime ministership. I think that was a load of by the government. Um so for me three terms maximum hopefully two term you know and I can and and people like myself can contribute really from our uh track record uh and experiences uh in terms of changing fundamentally

[25:47] what the country is right. um in that sense u and you you you touch on another point which is very strange. Tell me what you think about this this this thought. Um I think that the change will come from thinking Malaysians that are not yet brainwashed. We got no choice because our education system has brainwashed our mainly majority Malays because Malays are not stupid, you know.

[26:20] Yeah. Yeah, I agree. You know, I mean, and actually I find those comments insulting to Malays. Yep. You know, so I sir uh to be honest, I agree with you. If I were to run now, Nazmi, I want to run in a non-Mal community. Okay? Because why? Because I think uh Malaysia needs the non-Mallay community to show that they are not racist. I think the non-Malay community need to show that they are behind a Malay politician. I won't call myself a politician. I call myself businessman who goes into a politics to actually revamp the whole political system.

[27:08] Right? So it's up for the non-Males to say we know we need a Malay leader to change this country, right? Put your mouth where your, you know, where your money is. Put your money where your mouth is and actually support people like ourselves, right? That can make change. You, you know, you need to put a Malay and you need that, you know, the non-Malay politicians say what you want about DAP. They keep hacking on the Chinese community, right? Even though they multi-racial.

[27:40] Yep. Right. Yeah. And yet, what have they done for you guys? Nothing. So, here what you need is a Malay to come into the Chinese community and do something for the Chinese community and also for the whole Malaysian community.

[28:00] Can you ask me? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you know add to that please. I be talking too much. My apologies. No worries. Uh I think you know I understand the role and the political capital that EAP has accumulated right because since 1965 uh until uh now I mean particularly before 2008 when they were only opposition uh throughout the NEP throughout the Mahab years and everything they were seen as the defenders of the minorities the Chinese Indian um voters particularly and there is that sentimentality with many uh particularly older non-Mala but the non-Mala I think

[28:47] they also need to understand the demographic trend is very clear uh seats that are used to be seen as whoever you put as long as the batch is a rocket will win will become more and more mixed if it becomes mixed if PKR is strong then that's fine. If Amana has any role at whatsoever then okay it's fine or when they were working with pass or when you're working with AMNO but when they don't have that strong Malay party yet it will reach a point that the AP will struggle to hold on to their seats and unfortunately the rocket which is so sentimental to many Chinese and Indians also carries a

[29:30] opposite effect for the Malay voters by like you know whether is by whether is merited or not malay when they see the rocket there's certain connotation right um I mean I but to to a certain extent I honestly come to the point now I don't blame the malays

[29:47] correct correct and and I think that is where I think uh the non malays need to look at multi-racial parties where the malays can accept that party yes so that is a whole idea of pasmo is that because uh you know for example I mean the Indian demographic.

[30:05] Oh, the Indian will take anyone right now. Yes. And they are already facing a problem. Uh because from I think what they used to be what like almost 10% 7 now 6.5 or something you know there's no Indian majority seat anymore. Yeah. In the past it worked because under the BN model uh BN will give one or you know a few C's to MIC and all that and the BN missionary will come in the AM no will come in and block and all that right. uh but then PKR also started and the AP will put in Indian candidates in certain seats but the Chinese community will slowly have more and more seats like

[30:38] that where without the goodwill of the coalition they will not be able to put in a Chinese candidate purely or I mean we're looking at numbers right right right so I think we need to break this this uh mind is mansap and yeah I mean why don't it would be good if the non-Malays as well can show that in some traditional non-Malay seeds that they can vote in progressive malayise. Uh because at the end of the day I think it's not so much whether the representation is Malay, Chinese or Indian but what sort of thinking because if you are as I think the AP used to like to argue if you are

[31:13] MCA you just play the role you know that that submissive role to no uh it makes no difference but now people say hey the AP how different are you? So, so I think we we need to have this understanding and and and so that at the end of the day this multi-racial Malaysia that vision that that happened when we the country was for will not be lost. uh so I think that is a very important point that you say and I think u if you are interested in any in basamu and whatever I can't make the decision there is a system in place I you know there's a committee that you know we will talk

[31:45] about it but surely that's something that we want to consider because um we need more talents like like uh yourself that's well I mean to be very frank with you and I'm going to be very very honest about this okay um you I I hate to sound this because it sounds a bit a bit high on myself but to be frank you're going to find very very few like right and I'm a very reluctant so-called politician very very reluctant

[32:16] best the best politicians should be reluctant yeah well I mean even when I was in the corporate sector I wanted the business to speak for itself uh it unlike in 2010 when actually um Petra Padana. Uh, I had to step up and actually remove my whole um board of directors uh in the longest EGM in Malaysian history. Okay, if anybody remember 2010, go and Google Shamu Sah Petra Panang. Okay, nobody gave us a chance to eat and uh we wipe them out, you know. And you you because why we we want to do the right thing you know uh and in this case I think really you have to consider people like myself

[33:10] and people like you know uh others um uh even uh paneer I mentioned to you uh personalities like city kasim say Akbar they are willing to you know sacrifice their their their personal comfort you know um uh in alliance with a with with party like yourself that actually uh will make the change. Um on my part I'm I'm really still exploring but really I am determined to make the change. I've already said it in my last monologue about, you know, we were arrested for talking, you know, and um and I think it's the time for change is coming. It is already here and it is for the Rayat to actually

[34:06] uh make a decision. Yeah. And I agree with you. I I think I want uh uh the non-Malays to pick up a Malay and say we are going to represent your interest and the Malaysian interest and we're going to show everybody that the non-Mala are not a racist lot.

[34:27] Yeah. Yeah. You know in Pinang uh cuz I I actually was born in Pinang. I have many friends in Pang and I am bit in in the private sector. Uh is more than you know lawyers like yourself, accountants. Anyway, I respect lawyers. Okay. I this business you know uh it takes uh it takes a certain ability to actually to get through Italy. Where did you graduate from?

[35:01] Uh King College like King College London. So there you go. Here's a here's a really talented Malay. Okay. So um when we talk about that right I think you really need to look at uh exception to your rules because we business people uh uh we have money everywhere. Um and we uh we only need to look at actually the crown here for the political party to s us in what you are good at right and we you look at me I I think I will go into a Chinese community and I will fire them up but you know I mean my friends in Pinang are actually disgusted the AAP do you know that I was shocked I don't know

[35:55] what or experiences. I was absolutely shocked at the disgust my fellow Pinang people were talking about DAP. I think I I think um it's been quite fast on how that enormous political capital that they as I said I mean it was something that they acrewed it's like you know family aluh from the kitang days and all that it grew and grew and grew 2008 they became state governments they were part of other state governments yeah 2018 part of federal government ministers for the first time uh and then again in 2020 uh2 to but suddenly you could see the anger because you know and and you know

[36:40] the squabbbling the the the factionalism the AP used to be very disciplined uh I mean I mean not to defend PKR is well known for its uh final thing fighting political infighting. Yeah, cuz uh you know people like to say PKR is the weakest ling blah blah blah and uh you know but if you if you look at the AP today you know how they openly fight uh issues of integrity uh of course again you know that I'm not saying everyone in the AP is like that but the fact that those thing goes on um and you know when you have issues like the corporate mafia issues like I'll

[37:14] tell you about that and do you know can I enjoy a break we in big business there are two things we for more than the average people. Okay, because we deal with big packers. Okay, audience one IMDb become an issue. People like myself already know about IMDb and how much money was involved. Okay. All right. Uh uh what do you call uh uh and and and talking about and especially when you talk at legal this one. Oh my god. Yeah. You know I mean the people talk people our lower people don't know the fact they rise yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know and and it doesn't filter through

[38:07] but I think like uh yeah that email and that's why they now the only game plan right when they attack if you remember Tony my good friend he attack you know that bas man so that the boat don't come to you

[38:28] correct and similarly so I just give a same simple example we went to Joho uh BN1 on and we were very small the votes that we got in in all right we didn't go to BN it has nothing to do with

[38:44] yes and I like to give this example that this is like uh KFC versus McDonald's big restaurants big chains international chains we are small yeah okay we are correct a few of your audience and who do you do you think that sumo vote for basama who have voted for ph if basama did not exist they might have stayed hope yeah yeah yeah you So, so there there is no correlation and I think that shows how bad the AP and PH is that they have to play that boogie. is no longer but they not selling coke they're selling fear which is the same thing that I'm know past does about but now

[39:21] they do the reverse this green wave is blue wave and whatever but people don't want to see what are you offering if you ask me is you know yeah it's waiting time you know yep yeah but I mean can I okay I I I I want to go to a few more. I'm sorry if it takes a bit of the time in an hour, but um uh how do you assure the people? I mean I I am at this point just one of your voters. Sure. Okay. Um how do you assure that I'm not going to see the politicking that we see in almost all political parties? Because what are the things I hate about political parties? I'm be very very honest with

[40:11] sure okay is the justling for position the crying favor uh of the political masters um and how you have to kiss ass to get into position of where then your political master will say okay I'll give you this seat yeah you tell me how you're going to avoid that from happening in person well I when you're small when you have not no power you have no money it's easy right I mean I went through that with Pikam uh went through the whole cycle and now I'm restarting it with uh Brasamo um what we are trying to do differently for example uh is that one we are avoiding we want

[41:01] to make the party as lean as possible you know and these are things that your businessman likes to hear because traditional parties is and I understand you know in the past before there was there were computers, mobile phones and whatnot you have branches then you have divisions the parliamentary level and then you have state and then you have national women youth and all that so many layers then you're part of a bigger coalition so we are trying to avoid that we will cut a lot of the structures currently because we took over a very small pinang based party they only have

[41:37] one level so we got a group of young guys to become the committee members uh to go through ROS. Obviously I we didn't want my name or Rafi's name planning where to right and uh it took you know you saw how difficult it was for Hamza to get his party lodged um we didn't have to pay and anything you know it was all very proper and then but we will we are in the process of amending the party constitution uh but even then is that is going to be very lean uh you know we're trying to avoid you know uh at the local level uh jostling for positions I like what some countries do for example where

[42:16] they can announce beforehand like in the UK uh four years down the road they can say okay this is a prospective candidate candidate that guy can or lady can do the work you know whether we like it or not if you are in rural areas my parents are from clant you need to do the wedding funeral around just to introduce yourself and that's often why PH and BN do not su succeed in clant it's not just because it's amazing. It's amazing and I know you know and we have our ims but no we don't decide candidates decide I experienced that in second but I spent three years doing my ground work

[43:01] but that is urban so anyway if we can do that so how do you avoid that then you have the closely I fought against that yeah it's a weird thing it has happen no and all that. So we want to avoid all that. The idea is that we don't have at that local level that election should only be at the pus and maybe agree and and then we can you know we have a committee whatever okay we assign and then uh so you able to do that obviously if you are not fit suddenly we assign you then you you have a scandal then we drop you but otherwise the assumption is I'm sure 95% will be able to stand and and and

[43:45] contest that's one two is that we have this transparent system which the digital system allows us to do now is that it's a bit like MLM. It's a bit like playing games where you know uh we collect points. So when people register as a party member through my link I get 100 points. When I donate only up to 500 ringgit beyond that people can buy the party. Yeah. Uh we welcome the money but you only get 500 points maximum no matter how much you donate. Um then you have uh joining activities teaching yeah volunteering blah blah blah. There is a system where points are accumulated and

[44:20] you can look at other people and so there is so people can look at the merit so your points is zero it's still zero so I think I'm not saying it's perfect we know that as the party grows and all that it will be a bit more challenging because more is at stake but if we set the culture from now that is going to be more merit based that is going to be based on transparency where people are able to look at your performance and judge for themselves jobs then I think it will make a lot of difference because I in my experience I I I totally agree with your view coming from a career

[44:54] politician I never did my bar I never practiced law I spent my whole life in working life in politics that I don't think if I was a professional lawyer at the age of 40 that was my original idea establish myself I don't think I would eventually end up because you won't get into that system I was able to do that because had nothing they were happy. They were like, you know, scams that was probably the attitude that they had. back the system turns people off and you you incentivize the wrong set of people correct the brahman the parash those sort of people that you incentivize rather than

[45:42] same with I'm no I'm no 57 and I'm uh today I I but I think that actually you really have to look into an exception to the system because why I mean when we go head hunting in the uh in the private sector Yeah. Okay. We don't have a set system. Okay. We may have a set system uh on a normal basis but when we have exceptional situation we will take exceptional uh steps right and uh and people like myself with the pedigree that that we have at 62 years old we're not interested into the party politics. We're not interested in the uh mechanism. We are interested in producing results. Yeah.

[46:27] Right. Uh and you have to recognize that part of of us and the difference we can make actually outweigh your uh honestly your system. Yeah. No, I think I I totally agree and as as I said I mean for example Wongchen he did not uh I mean he applied to be a member just like any other thing you know IC he applied to be a member through the normal party system and it was approved and all that uh similarly because you have to submit certain things I mean it's just uh any you know any party uh they have that process just to make sure because then we need to uh you know go

[47:07] through the process check insolveny I mean we know that you're okay but you just we we need to go through the things so that when we then submit to SPR that is in order right uh but I'm not saying that but not everyone has to sort of uh what do you call that we we don't value talent uh so we do reach out

[47:25] you must find a way whereby when you reach out okay there are minimum requirements that are uh required by law more than anything that we have to comply uh but uh uh uh but uh like you say to me I mean unfortunately we don't have a presidential system.

[47:46] Yeah. If I have if we have a presidential system uh Nazi me I think you can read my mind what I'm going to do already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, um but that being as it may, uh at the last point of uh where I am, um uh and I promise our my audience and I promise Malaysians really that I think we need to make this last push for change.

[48:15] Y yeah. Uh I have two pet that I wanted to pack issues that I wanted to talk to you about. Uh, one I'm a big advocate of cutting taxes. Mhm. Okay. Because I believe that when we cut taxes, this now we talk agenda of it.

[48:31] Sure. Sure. Because I believe that we cut where we cut taxes, we actually uh increase liquidity in the system um and motivate more uh into the system. The problem with our governments are because we have been bloated

[48:47] and we have had leakage of corruption and therefore they need more money to block the leakage. It's not for the country. Mhm. Okay. Uh that's one. Second part is actually when I look at um um affirmative action.

[49:03] Yeah. Okay. Um I think affirmative action definition has been very uh misused. I've always believed that if we provide good education at the lowest level right up to when you 16 17

[49:20] you know the way I had you know okay I I was I was okay um the school of Tahad. Yeah. To Mahade was college. The college. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[49:45] Tom was college. Uh and um and then I went visit which was a fully boarding school. We we call it the MKK of the north, you know, but uh it was very much poor people. Um and I I when I thought bad about the the facilities, the kind of teachers that we had um I think we need to revamp back to that kind of education system. Um whereby then married comes the force. Not everybody deserve to be in college or university or need to be in one you know. So that is that is the other part that I hope you guys take on board. uh about so-called affirmative action. Uh the other part is uh I'm going to

[50:37] come out uh with a monologue on kwan malayu. There is no such thing as kwadan malayu. Um and we need to change the mindset of our Malay people. But I think one of the reason people like me were actually snack out from the system and put and detain and it is only because I check out English. Mhm. I'm going to take more if I go on this uh this quest,

[51:10] right? You know, I think it'll be worse. Yeah. I I mean the for the authorities for the authorities, right? But because why they are scared that we change the mindset of the home,

[51:23] you know? Uh uh and this is what I mean to me I want you guys to consider. Sure. Right. Uh because my heart is for come on man I'm 62 years old.

[51:37] I I I don't want to be doing this at 70 you know. In fact you ask me um at any leadership position if you stay longer than 10 years you're absolutely a useless person. You have not created uh a secondary

[51:56] uh succession plan. Succession plan, a system that is strong, that is that has an infrastructure that can actually bring up the right kind of people

[52:08] and a culture for the right kind of people, you know. So that's my sure uh my points with respect to what I think uh my comment on the agenda.

[52:21] Yeah. Okay, I don't want to go to talk about climate change because I think you know we are only 1% of the fat of the carbon contribution of earth. Why are we spending all these billions of Malaysian resources in patronas is a patronas guy, right? Yeah, it was ex patrononas, right? Yeah. Um, I think now that I'm free from my corporate, I stepped down from uh my last corporate position because I felt that I need to sacrifice to be able to say what I want to say

[52:55] without fear of favor. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Yeah. Please, please. Okay. Uh, before I go to the other stuff, uh, on climate change, uh, I mean, I agree we're a relatively small emitter, although our per capita is getting higher now. We almost developed uh, status. our

[53:12] I disagree with that. Yeah, it's okay. But my point is uh but we also need beyond that I mean wherever we can go dispute about that we also need to be more independent in terms of energy. Okay. So for example, we used to be a net exporter of gas, but now because we are relying after we start start to uh you know uh less coal uh no more uh any uh diesel power plants and whatnot, we are so dependent on gas uh and purely from a business uh or economic perspective, we need to diversify. uh we are still very low on solar uh and I do think as uh just so that we have uh multiple sources uh of

[53:53] energy uh so I think that that's uh my my argument on that and the other part is that we still need to deal with climate resilience meaning it not it's not about mitigation uh about just reducing net zero and all that that's a separate issue but facing the extreme heat and uh sea uh level rise that we're facing today but so that that's my respond to to your point uh on climate change on Kwanan. I totally agree with you. Uh I think um you know our constitution has certain provisions that were necessary to convince people that we can become to come together as a

[54:29] nation at that time. Uh my father is 96. He's still around uh not so well now but he was born in 1930 in Clantan. And so he will share I used to have strong debates you know I said about the NEP and all that and said well you know you're born I got I was fortunate to get all the good education and all that I was in LA PJ went to HKK and got uh to go to UK on scholarship but he said during his time was a bit different right he he when he was in MU Singapore you know uh okay he was fortunate in arts so they were a bit more malays minority color science too is like wow you have be super smart uh

[55:08] to be in. Right. So he he he he will explain to me but to me actually is a modern invention. It was never exactly in fact went to say that even golfing handicap you know it was necessary because of the timing and all that but katuana never existed. I think it was uh Ara I think in the 80s who started to talk about and then but it's a political tool it's a political tool and you using that card you know with all the and and the tone cut is benefits them rather than those at the bottom. So I totally agree and my dad was actually at JPA when NEP started and he was explaining

[56:00] was that uh early '7s. So he had he was the deputy DG and he had to go to Tanuit to get money to send more Malaysians uh abroad,

[56:12] right? Uh and all that and we were building local universities but scholar science we were sending kids abroad and all that and I think that was the right way. Um and and eventually I think we we need to deal with it that that if we don't uh overcome this in a fair manner, you are just killing off people. A lot of Malays are feeling left out if they're not politically connected.

[56:33] They will continue to be left out because the system are actually making them stupider. Yeah. I mean uh and and you know I know genuine uh entrepreneurs Malay and all that people like yourself who finally they decide political connection they can't make even though they the right skin color so finally overseas everyone oh we want to bring you back home and all that why can't we have nurtured them from the first place and we are non-Malays but also Malays right and I have friends who who decide that I just want to I

[57:12] abroad. I mean the expansion of my business in the oil and gas uh really truly the huge expansion that we had was because 70% of our revenue was coming from uh overseas and then um when I turned around uh after we sold the company in 2015 I just did a venture into restructuring uh PN7 company and one of the key companies that I had subsidiary uh was uh was a was a lency of a of a of a Texas company that actually we did a lot of job for Saudi Arabia has saved the company. Um so uh our people including Malaysians of non uh Malay origin Chinese actually are very conservative. They

[58:10] don't see the way people like myself see about the opportunity that Malaysia has uh in terms of our ingenuity, our resources and being able to actually succeed overseas and expand our economic uh spear.

[58:26] Y you know which is very very sad because our government does not see that. Y and know how to take advantage of that. And that goes to another part. Yeah. I think that I would really like to see that Basama pledge uh that you will liberalize uh the banking system. I think our banking system are constricting like a bo uh constrictor uh the the the strength of our economy. Um we need more banks. We need more foreign banks. We need banks at every corner of our country. you know so that small and medium scale businesses are actually well catered for currently are not it is now the field of all

[59:17] I've been saying this day in day in and day out with Apple yeah and I think for the banks they just is very comfortable yeah uh make huge returns from the this very safe uh uh but the people are left out but

[59:32] yeah go on go on just on the taxes part I think we We may have slight uh different perspectives on uh economic philosophy. I think I'm slightly center left and I don't think you're center left but anyway but I do agree I do agree that there's a few parts corruption is one procurement process and all that but we are also that for example subsidies right uh one of the things I did two weeks in my job was the PM said we can't be spending this much anymore on electricity tariffs because we are subsidizing and it was blanket right so we did it more targeted uh so we you know we are spending now 6

[1:00:07] billion uh ringit a month on petrol subsidies. So it can be done in a different way. Uh I mean I understand that uh you know you you can I mean uh from a political p perspective you take away that 6 billion uh it will create a lot of havoc but then you should be more targeted but the other thing is that our fiscal situation is just because of all this uh subsidy uh blanket subsidies wastage corruption and all that. our sub uh fiscal situation is messed up and and one of the things that you know is uh you know a lot of the taxation you know you are a businessman you know how LHDN

[1:00:47] is the most efficient government department uh which is nothing wrong in a sense because you want I mean if I was a PM I would want uh LHDN to be efficient but you know you have to pay uh a you have to estimate your uh upper profit you have to buy your tax in advance but they always keep that money so that government can report that the deficit situation is better is better

[1:01:10] because it's cash accounting and then they hold back the the reimburse and reimburse and themes could oh my and that to me I run a small I mean not there yet it's just one year old the e voicing are hurting a lot of people

[1:01:26] yeah I I I think that they are more in common between what you say you may say that you are center left you may say I'm center Right. Okay. Uh but actually listening to you, you have I have this sense that we have more in common than you think you know. Uh because my way of looking at things is always looking at holistic problem.

[1:01:51] Yeah. Okay. I feel that because why I've always said this in my podcast that uh everything socioeconomic is all integrated. We cannot attack one and actually um put everything in a silo because everything um has an impact on another. So if we sit down as a group of really I mean I look at yourself I'm I'm so happy to talk to you today because it's I have very low respect for politician. I don't blame you. Okay. But today I must say I I I'm very impressed with this young man of 44. I call him a young man not out of disrespect because that is out of admiration.

[1:02:43] Um for a 60 32 years old businessman who has worked for 40 years building companies and seeing people succeed. Uh I'm proud to hear the way this you as a as a Malay uh accomplished politician talk. Um I think that if we have people like yourself sitting on a round table you know macha camelot right we people like us will come up with solutions and it is going to be a a integrated solution that actually helps every people in country um irrespective of race or religion and everybody is a Malaysian I mean that flag represent the the the uh the the people of our country,

[1:03:36] you know. Um, and this is what I think we should aspire to. Uh, so we are not that far off, you know. No, no. I mean, it was just a a Yeah.

[1:03:49] Yeah. We are not we are I mean climate for example when you mentioned climate and all that, right? I'm an oil and gas man. Um, even though my first business was not in oil and gas, uh, but you know, I was 8 years with Shell. I came out I did uh proc engineering business. Alhamdulillah. I told my dad actually if I put my money in this and I fail I'm leaving the country actually. uh alhamdulillah um you know I made you know for a single man operation you know on average of 12 15,000 at that particular time uh doing design engineering um and then the oil and gas come calling back again.

[1:04:37] So I I want to say this about oil and gas. Unfortunately, the people we have running oil and gas today um are not up to the caliber that I think we should. And the reason is they are standing on the uh on the shoulder of giants that built it.

[1:05:01] But they are big-headed. They are what I call parachute CEOs and parachute uh seuite executives who increase the empire and actually have comfortable packages. All right. And I'll tell you guys I can run Petronas with one six of the people in there. Shamshu can do it. And not only that, but then you ask yourself, what happened to the other uh uh to the other people? I'll tell you what, you know, we have Petros, we have Sabah. I know how we could work with the state government to actually build up the infrastructure and the capability in Saba and Traa so that as one Malaysia,

[1:05:53] we can actually succeed the gas economy. Uh, Nazmi, you can't believe what we could do with it. We have the largest reserve. All right, we don't have to worry. I love nuclear energy. Okay, I've always said 20 years ago, we should look at nuclear energy. Okay, but I'm not a big fan of solar. Uh, I'm not a weak fan of turbine for very difficult for for for for different reasons. Number one, our our conditions are not app for it. I have studied it. Uh I'm a chemical engineer and a scientist by nerd. Okay. Uh I challenge anybody to actually come for a 2hour debate on this with me.

[1:06:43] I'll put you guys in a rubbish bin. Okay? So we have a gas economy and I'm telling you something. If I ever get to where I can make a difference, Sabah and Sra will be much richer and more uh paneer than what it already is. We have in Malaya neglected our uh uh our fellow citizens in Sabah and Sra. Okay, Nick, please I think we should look into that. We should really look into that because uh I think the problem is I I tell you very simple. I do at the at the management level. I just I I got tired of especially two years ago when I was uh no not two years ago, three years ago when I was at Ala

[1:07:44] Maritim uh uh they uh the uh association of uh offshore uh vessel uh called me in into the XCO uh to solve one problem which is what? Can you believe they saw that? They had somehow when I left the industry li uh I went to Alam to do a takeover after the restructuring. Unfortunately, the uh not want to accept my uh uh uh what do you call my my my white knight money because it would dilute the

[1:08:24] uh you know but just to cut the whole story short um uh what happened was uh uh I told I told the Petroas at that particular time your 15year limit for uh offshore services vessel offshore services vessels are stupid because can you imagine at the very minimum if you got the best term you're looking at 7 to 10 years of ROI

[1:08:57] that means you have 5 years at best to actually get your returns on it but actually you should be selling it at 12 years because by the time you hit 13 14 years, the outside market already know you got no choice but to sell it cheap.

[1:09:22] Yeah. Because you can't you you cannot operate it in Malaysia already. Yeah. So I told Petroas, are you guys stupid or what? And they had the paper talking in technical terms all this why it can still run and all that. I take the paper I throw it in a rubbish bin and I said to patronize I said you guys are dumb. You guys don't understand economics. The first thing that is important is economics. We can still fly a plane 30 years. and you want to get a brand new boat after 15 years. I said to them straight in my India, you did not build this industry. My generation, I did build the industry.

[1:10:18] And guess what? I got my 20 years. But to be honest, I wanted more than 20 years. But my fellow people in the expo told me that You know, if it were up to me, I would at least be looking at a minimum 25.

[1:10:41] You see how stupid the people in GLC's are and people like myself who are very well experienced who has done this, okay, who could help the country actually prosper. You see the po a policy like that. Do you know how many billions we spend on maritime and how much impact it has in terms of investment operation banking one simple decision up the whole economy. So I'm just giving you an example.

[1:11:26] All right. So I also look at it from the gas indust from the gas uh uh from the gas economy. Okay. There is something we can do which actually the the difference is this the problem that I find politician has is politicians surround themsel with uh the usual suspects. I call it

[1:11:49] the usual suspects who actually don't talk like me. Okay. who will call a spade a spade because they will come to you and and and inject you all. Mhm. You know, and give you the rosy picture. Yeah.

[1:12:03] And and and and then tell you, you know, a slight change here. No, no, no, no, no. I am going for the radical changes that is going to make the country great again. Yeah. But I think no I mean on that on that note uh even when I was handling climate change and all that that was my approach because I opened up uh to multiple I mean from the entire spectrum I opened up uh the ministry

[1:12:29] right to work on climate change policy from the corporates international GLC'smemes uh what do you call that or or big Mian companies I opened up uh to even NOS's including youth NOS's to come out of policy and obviously that was also very unnerving for some senior civil service because for them you know they they would prefer to do this always uh balar

[1:12:59] right you know and but I said you know you can't come up with workable policies right uh that will have impact on businesses right will uh what do you call that whether you like it or not you need input from civil society in silos

[1:13:12] right uh And um yeah I mean and I I agree you know sometimes the corporates are wrong sometimes the civil society is wrong but the when you work on things together there is a shared ownership

[1:13:27] right uh so they feel that they are part of that process right and I think the problem with government uh my father was a senior civil servant is that that that that attitude of being inside it's not just about private sector or entrepreneurs is even between ministry to ministry. Tell me about it. Even data right every ministry will guard it uh closely. I I I I'll tell you all the climate just one.

[1:13:53] Sure. Sure. I am just waiting because I love to go to forums. I went to uh uh physics for uh forum for uh when uh uh pane uh when one of the Nobel Prize winner came about. Right. Here's the thing about the CL. Have nobody has ever ever invited somebody who has a different opinion on climate change. Okay? You know Steven Kunin, have you heard of it? He was Obama's um uh what do you call science advisor? Okay. He worked for BP to actually transition BP into green energy. All right. And yet he wrote the book called settled because he said we got it all wrong. But in Malaysia I think situation is

[1:14:47] slightly different. All gas is so strong. No no what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. So when the view is uh there's always that strong uh conventional view or whatever or or you know what of uh climate change and whatnot that that establishment view is uh I would say is skewed more towards oil and gas.

[1:15:05] Not true. It is. No. In my experience in government. Mhm. Uh it was uh that was the thing that we were up against. Well, I I'll tell you something that has happened these days, right? Because uh uh ESG for example,

[1:15:20] I don't understand why we are pushing ESG so hard. Mhm. Okay. Because number one, the first thing is environment. Okay. Look, we have laws. Why are we duplicating laws? Okay. You got sustainability. Again they talk about environment and this is pushed by from securities commission to BA as if it is the Bible. Nobody has even questioned it. Okay. And then governance. Why are you including government? You already have your BSA rules. You already have the law. You have already I mean you are putting regulation upon regulation upon regulation. This is something we need to I I I think

[1:16:05] always we we should be doing this instead of uh what do you call trying to pile one one uh regulation upon another. Okay. Because we see a problem, we should look at a regulation and say let's tear it apart and let's look it fresh. I I I see your point on the issue of uh too many regulations and all that. But there's also the difference between uh what do you call that rules laws because laws it's mandatory it applies to everyone universally uh whereas you want to have certain uh aspirational targets uh at a higher level uh and and those are are things that they put in some of that I most of

[1:16:53] laws are are fine I'm not arguing I'm looking at regulatory because these are put to put forward without parliament. I understand. But the problem with with laws is that it takes uh to change laws,

[1:17:08] we we got to put it to parliament. I agree. I agree. So in order to push for higher standards sometimes all these ESG uh objectives and whatnot, it is to drive behavior at a higher level because I know I'm agree I I always like to say that you can't treat for example like for example, okay, you talk about Bura and I know they have all these regulations and all that, right? Those are not those are not parliamentary laws, you know.

[1:17:32] I agree. I agree. I know. That's why my point. That's my whole argument. My whole argument is if you uhmemes, they can't afford a chief sustainability officer. Yeah. All right. But uh there are certain things that we need to do changes in the economy uh in terms of uh driving uh behavior uh what you call that um not just not just about environment uh how to make talk when we talk about living wages and all those things. uh minimum wage that's the uh I don't like minimum wages

[1:18:01] I understand but even minimum wage of 1,700 ringgit in KL is not enough right and we can have a long debate about that yeah but there are other views like uh I mean uh how did Singapore drive up their wages right yeah it's by is by progressing the economy

[1:18:15] yes but they had laws and they had rules as well the progressive wage uh guide that they had in Singapore so it wasn't like it it wasn't purely through growth growth happened hand inhand with regulations to ensure that the proceeds of the economy also went to the workers. But I mean we we can go on and that you know what you know what all I would say gentlemen ladies out of this I'm loving this conversation even though not everything I completely agree with uh uh Nick Nazmi but this is the kind of robust conversation that need to happen in government. Okay.

[1:18:51] Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. This is why I may be wrong and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, you know, and this is the start of actually how you change into a better country.

[1:19:05] Yeah. you know I I I would be the first to to tell my even when I was uh managing director I know I'm a very opinionated person that I had to set a culture where my people are willing to come to me and tell me boss I think you need to rethink this I think you're wrong and you have to be able to allow them to tell you that you are wrong without fear or favor you know when you do that actually You create a culture where people love to actually debate their bosses and you get a better result. And you know what I tell you one thing I love you know

[1:19:48] I will pivot on a time because why that is how we become very nimble. Yeah you know. Yeah right. I think is there anything else you want to add? Because I mean I could go guys I tell you with this guy I don't know how to tell you guys I just think of this. You guys know me. Okay. I just can't stand politician. Okay. And I'm sitting with this young man. I'm looking at this and I'm smiling because this is aspirations that I see for uh a country coming from young persons like this. Sorry L we even do 44 years. Yeah I think that as a good thing you know and this is what the country needs

[1:20:38] you know the country needs vibrant conversation not shutting down. Oh yeah, we should shut down all the sedicious act and all this kind right. It is uh it is it is so you know I mean the I get emails from uh my friends shocked because they watch the video and they couldn't believe this is what caused me

[1:21:03] to get called by the cops malu and I've been trying to tell my friends you know in America uh in UK Okay. And you know that we are a modern nation. I'm trying to find investments. You know, but anyway, uh any last words, please?

[1:21:33] Uh I enjoy the last words. I enjoy I I I think I truly enjoy this conversation. uh you rightly say I think we sometimes the bad thing about uh all this digital freedom is that we tend to get sucked into our own um bubbles our own silos right so uh I guess uh you know having that uh those that debate was actually something that was very uh refreshing uh and I agree I think that is something that because you need to um stress test every policy every argument that you have um and it's not easy to have that right either either people may actually disagree but they may not say

[1:22:10] right that's the or you just mix in your circle that and then you hate that and then you come back with it you know I I and I I I must say in all honesty this is so much fun.

[1:22:22] Yeah. And uh but lastly I think lastly I I also agree with you. We we must keep that faith in trying to make a difference in the country. Uh we used to think that we couldn't change the government. I mean that was what

[1:22:36] I hear that a lot from my non-male friends. Yeah. They have almost given up hope. Yeah. But I think uh we shouldn't you know hope springs eternal. I I I think we should by this conversation.

[1:22:48] Yeah. I hope that we can give the inspiration for our especially our non-Malays that uh and our Sraawakan and Sabahan friends that there is a path forward for Malaysia together. Um and we are we are capable to make that change. We just need your support you know and uh uh I want to close this by thank you you so much for spending this more than one hour with me.

[1:23:19] Um uh I'm honored. Um so I hope to see you all again. I forgot to say subscribe and like so that you guys keep on getting this conversation. Wait, I have more coming. I am not going to close this door to more political conversations. I think you guys will enjoy it. Thank you so much. Thank you, Nazmi.

[1:23:44] Thank you. All the best to Bersama. Thank you very much.