# Race Relations & Education – Our Future Together (Episode 113)
Published: 2026-09-02T08:15:14+00:00

## Summary
Host Sam Saad and political commentator Tai Zee How ('Apek Cina') dissect how differing cultural attitudes toward education and religion shape ethnic divides in Malaysia. They trace how historical civilizational incentives—such as Chinese imperial civil service exams versus Malay feudal governance—led to divergent modern priorities, with Chinese communities treating education as a supreme vehicle for mobility while political Islamization altered Malay educational priorities. The dialogue emphasizes that overcoming national polarization requires moving past dogmatic segregation in favor of critical thinking, secular competency, and genuine shared empathy.

## Key Takeaways
- [4:20] Tai argues that the Chinese community places education above religion, whereas Malay and Indian communities historically prioritize religious institutions and identity when allocating scarce communal resources.
- [6:18] The Chinese veneration of education stems from ancient imperial examinations (keju), which offered the only route to break through rigid feudal social classes without nobility or warfare.
- [37:19] Nostalgic claims of early post-independence multi-ethnic harmony largely reflect a privileged one-percent English-educated elite, while majority populations lived insulated within separate cultural bubbles.
- [54:44] The Malay community's shift toward prioritizing religious dogma over secular math and sciences was catalyzed in the 1970s and 1980s by the global Islamic revivalist movement and political competition between UMNO and PAS.
- [1:01:38] Religious advocacy carries vastly more persuasive weight with the general public when delivered by individuals holding secular academic mastery rather than those trained solely in theology.
- [1:22:29] Tai asserts that religion provides an essential basis for impractical compassion across ethnic lines, while Sam contends compassion is fundamentally a universal trait of human character independent of faith.

## Chapters
0:00 Debunking the Nostalgia of Racial Harmony
3:49 Cultural Priorities: Religion Versus Education
6:18 Imperial Examinations and Chinese Social Mobility
13:30 Feudal Governance and Malay City-States
28:13 The Industrial Revolution and Secular Knowledge
43:49 May 13 and the One Percent Bubble
54:44 Political Islam and Education Shift in the 1980s
1:10:51 Defining Holistic Education and Universal Compassion

## Transcript
[0:00] In the modern times that was quite an inaccurate hypothesis where in the past we do not know each other and henceforth we don't make friends or enemy with each other in terms of majority. So you're talking about the 60s now the 50s and 60s

[0:12] 50s 60s7s. Okay. Okay. So personally now I put my own anctor please. Where all these uncles of my generation which is your generation right

[0:24] told me how good it was in the past. Then my next question is where did you stud where Chinese Malay India live harmoniously. Then my question was that where did you study? I was studying St. John institution Victoria institution college pinang free school. I said you guys are the 1%. You have no idea absolutely what happened in Greek what happened in Tanjung Malim what happened in Raul? What happened in the Kong Baru China here and there all these things they have literally no access to other races and they don't know the Chinese wouldn't have know what the five solut

[1:03] like is they don't know they don't know the difference between umrah and hami and the malay wouldn't have know what is hungry goes they wouldn't have know what is this and that no they only know Chinese new year they have to give anga and they wouldn't have know what is wis I always get anga when I was 7 years old from the auntie next door you Yeah. Yeah. But do you know why is Chongyang here? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Guot podcast. I'm Shamsh Sam. Today guys welcomes into our conversation tied known as Apachina.

[1:33] Oh yeah. How are you sir? I'm very good. All right. Um uh Zi is a is a lawyer uh that has become a political commentator

[1:45] uh at a podcaster. uh specifically sometimes he does his content in Bahasa um addressing the cultural gaps between especially uh the Malay majority demographic uh against uh not against I would say uh in comparison to uh minorities such as Chinese and Indian

[2:07] uh especially I think your main community here in peninsula right um so today what we want to talk about I coming from both our experiences is uh the community relations uh between the various uh comm community in Smanjjo,

[2:27] right? And also um intergrated within that is actually how education impacts um the community relations. uh and uh and and and and what makes uh each community taken another with respect to itself and also how that uh translate into their priorities into in education and the the resultant effect of that.

[2:59] Okay. Um, you want to me to call you English? It's up to us. We Malaysia Roa. Okay. Have a have a drink of our orito coffee. Our favorite coffee.

[3:15] It's quite nice. I order a cappuccino and I drink. I say well done. This is nicely brewed cappuccino coffee man. So if you have plaza damas have an orito. Okay. Uh here goes. Okay. Um let's kick it off. You know, what is your biggest observation when it comes to actually the differences in terms of uh how the majority Malay community looks at education versus how the Chinese community looks at education?

[3:49] I particularly love this question. Wow. Okay. See, I bang already oneh I get number one already from Zo. Yeah. Okay. And this question I have been answering for the past six seven years and some of this uh video of mine has been resurfaced and went viral again. Exactly this question Malay Chinese and Indian let's talk is a manjong major races each race collectively I wouldn't say that all of us behave the same

[4:20] but if I were forced to stereotype based on data alone each raises priority education in a different manner Indians predominantly Hindu Indians Malay Muslim prioritize religion above above education. It's a factual truth. Okay? And there's nothing wrong about that. But the Chinese, we think education is above religion and perhaps education itself is a religion, right?

[4:49] Above all religion. So I would like to give a layman a layman uh context in that manner. So if you were given priority to choose to build a Hindu temple and a Hindu uh Tamil school, majority of our Indian friends will prefer uh Hindu temple over a Tamil school if resources is restricted,

[5:12] right? Scarcity of resources. Okay. Malay on the other hand education is part of religion. But we are talking about a specific education over here. A religion education or a circular education. Religious education in in time being has been prioritized by majority Malay over secular education

[5:34] but Chinese on the other hand I bring my friends to Chinese schools right Malaya Indian I say look at the hall of donations you will see that those who donate 50,000 100,000 have their name or their institution inscribed on the hall and they were surprised to find out that the temples actually donated to schools. So when task about priority temple make way to school in Chinese community and in fact to supplement that is ingrained and rooted in the Chinese culture about education. In the olden days education, Chinese civilization is the only civilization then then you can

[6:18] break through social leather not by war, not by uh honorific title bestow upon the king or the emperor but by examinations.

[6:30] I remember reading about this actually. Mhm. Um what did they call the examination? It's called um kji kji. Yes. Okay. There are four tiersh four tiers,

[6:44] right? Mhm. Right. Um let me explain very briefly about the four tiers. So you start with which I'm not going to go into the details of the juggle. Right. You start with your village examination and of the top 100 achiever will go to the provincial examinations. Then you will get certain title like then the then you will go to for go for the capital uh examination level examination of which top 100 will go for the imperial examination. Yes. And the emperor themsself usually will stand in as a chief invigilator and also chief examiner for the imperial examination and the top three will

[7:35] immediately get a class five or class 66 grade ministerial position and that's how a normal ordinary citizen during the ancient civilization through education and examination can break through social classes and become ministers. I remember reading this in the book by a Stanford professor actually.

[8:00] Uh it was entitled the rise and fall of the east because he was uh actually doing a thesis on uh he was a he was a China scholar came from China

[8:13] and he was breaking down the thesis of uh from a political standpoint but also historical standpoint. M so it's very clear that education um uh in terms of what we consider secular education

[8:29] which means that you know uh things you have to think you have to uh in those days physical sciences poetry poem music non-religious

[8:41] non-religion things are actually taken as priority as a way to move up the u uh to move up the the the ladder in society. So that was available to everybody from the ground up. I mean it's it's quite an interesting uh uh an interesting eye opener for me

[9:03] uh when I read that book actually um which then goes back to the other part uh about our before I touch on the Malay community um the Indian community itself when I look at India I mean they have like what 200 languages

[9:20] right dialects dialects or whatever I mean they can't understand even the other dialect Mhm. Mhm. Right. So, you know, Taloo and Tamil is almost completely different.

[9:33] Right. So, that's a barrier in in in in a way. Um, that's another thing. And then you have all these differences and then you put further uh a priority on religion. I I do see that for my especially Hindu friends,

[9:51] you know. Um and and that that in a way equate going back to our Malay community. And I was wondering why is that so considering that in all these three civilization

[10:13] there is uh underlying factor of feudalism. Mhm. Right. The Chinese is also a feudal society. M right uh but it had leveled itself I think at what which emperor started it started this examination

[10:29] do you remember during the harness if I'm not mistaken or tang dynasty um and and what drove the the emperor to actually conduct this examination

[10:45] when China was small China used to be as small as um I I would say half of Southeast Asia. Mhm. During the Chin dynasty where there was waring state, seven of the state uni unified or united under Emperori that was about 2,000 plus years ago where China was unified. He actually the first thing that he do is to abolish the feudal no sorry he abolished the tributary systems where you have warlords and an emperor during the and the Shang dynasty. Then he established the feudal system. Then where he established um province and and the era we call it the era and aguri and that is

[11:33] where you have a sudden influx of um population inqin dynasty and you really need a lot of people to run your country for you. You can't just recruit from the nobility because you already eradicate the six other states is eliminated.

[11:50] You already Yeah basically and you want to use the hammy to run your country for. So you are in dire need of talents and subsequently subsequently by just military appointment is not sufficient to fill in the gap. But what emperor suangi did was he burned the language the books and he actually buried the scholars of six other waring states and unify the words the language the measurement system everything and that's why emperor is the name that the western world use to portray current day China the land of chin

[12:32] okay yeah so that's a good that's that's a good start and then before we go into uh into how that differs uh with the Malay civilization,

[12:44] right? I'll I'll I'll pause here for a message. If you guys like to continue this conversation, enjoy the conversation that we have. Uh please subscribe so we can keep getting this uh podcast for free for you guys and keep liking so that we can uh we can uh we can spread uh our intelligent conversation to all the thinkers in Malaysia. We have a country to save ladies and gent now um we come back and uh when we look at the Malay community, right? So feudalism was um is also a a a feature of that right up from let's say if we think about uh s vijaya the pa the

[13:30] paleang puna this uh that that you know that created uh all the system of governance but we are looking at actually very small areas.

[13:43] Mhm. Right. If you talk about say the Tanamu at that time, it's it's a minuscule of what Shiangi was having to manage. You mean the Nantara,

[13:57] not because only because if you talk about Nantara, you've got a couple of empire there already. Oh, yeah. Right. and they weren't really trying or interested to actually uh conquer a whole

[14:14] swath and maybe because of the geographical difficulty you're talking about uh thousands of islands and uh and of inside the archipelago.

[14:27] Yeah. Stretching over thousand of kilometers. Correct. So you might and you should be satisfied already with your uh empire or your swath of land and then you trade between the different cities, right? So we became a spice trader trading uh commercial area, right?

[14:49] But the the FF dome is very small relatively to there. So uh there is no no uh compulsion or no push factor to actually have a need to bring uh the local population into management

[15:15] so to speak. Right? So you have your nobility class that works for the sultanss, you know, relative to an emperor who have already decimated

[15:28] Mhm. the other aristocracy and basically needed bureaucrats and bureaucrats with secular knowledge in order for them to manage this huge empire.

[15:41] Would that would that would that be a that is the a sensible hypothesis? the preamble to the hypothesis. It's a preamble. Correct. Yeah. So, Han dynasty is even bigger. Tang dynasty, it was the greatest dynasty then. But you compare to the Malay states then,

[15:58] right? Let's say during Paramea's time. You all remember the story about 1398. Well, he fled from Palamango to um the Maset which is currently Singapore and killed the viseroy of Siam Tamagi. He moved to Mua and established a state in Malaa. But bear in mind on this one thing when Paramesa reached Malaa with hundreds of followers, there was a fishing village over there.

[16:29] Right? Fishing village which call themselves Orurang Laut the current day ancestor of the Malayu of the current day. One of them is Orurang Laud. Okay. And then he say well there story about the kil kick over his hunting dog and then forth he said we would like to establish a state over here

[16:47] and that was400 not long after that it was 1430s with malung came over with his armada of 26,000 people when he arrived at Malika Malaka's population was 3,000 he was unsure about the exact amount but it's approximately 3,000 people with 26,000 then you can know the differences between them. Hey, it's and and and here's the thing that is interesting for those of us for those who are asking why we have the credibility to talk about historical. This is the difference between us and a lot of people talking. We are very we we we read a lot of secular knowledge.

[17:30] Okay. All right. People like ourselves we are voracious reader open to challenge in terms of facts and figure open to challenge. Yeah. So anyway to continue. So so go on. Malay states were quite a city states that

[17:45] right like it's almost like how how uh Greek was yes you know in terms of sparta yeah like a city and this is how it works let's say that is empire of lankasuka

[18:00] lankasuka is a present day kada and a kadatua you may have one capital city in lumbabu jang and then the surrounding village and that's all your country and then you have this ganga nagara in her you may have your city state in the current day uh typing or whatever I I'm not sure about that to be fair and that is your country then you have Malaca

[18:21] yeah there's only one city so to run this city you have sufficient nobility you have sufficient uh generals of of a thing you have shabandhas you you only have four shabanda in Malaka at the peak of Sutam Muzafasa you see and then you have your lakam you have your t theong which is IG GP and that that is good enough to run a city. There's no

[18:45] there's no need for you to have layers of bureaucracy bureaucracy. So in China it was big from Tong dynasty the Sway dynasty it was so huge that you will need someone capable of running a province as big as Malaka's empire that time. you a lot of parame

[19:05] and then if you if you think about it right if you think about the books that were written by confucious for example and all that those are really if you ask me those are really secular books I I think it's arguable because confucutionism has thus developed into a religion itself which I don't I don't agree I don't agree

[19:25] I think you and I will will have to disagree on the definition I I I agree with you and I quite disagree with them but this is how it was perceived deceived by the majority. They pray to confutious. They put incense sticks. It has become a religion without understanding the it's philosophical philosophy.

[19:43] Yes, I agree that it's okay. Put another way. Confucious has a good friend called Lous. Yes. Lousie and you know how Lous looks like. Just go to Tawi's temple. That guy with the old wong beard with one stick and another beard on the stick. And that's why it reminded me of that one. That one reminds me of that scene in in Kill Bill.

[20:07] That's how that's how Okay. So, La actually wrote this book called the book of moral and truth, right? It has become a foundation of Taoism. But nowadays when you ask the Chinese, they fuse tism with local uh practices. It has become a very superstitious practice.

[20:30] Yeah. Yeah. like burn the paper say I'm aism doesn't do that it's all philosophical there is this one term in Chinese called ru and then or something that means there are hund over school of thought and even when I studied law in the UK we study about jurist prudence

[20:51] right and the one that advocate law above men is menious menus is a disciple of confusious uhhu Fajia so there are so many school of thought so many philosophy during the waring sty that confusionism triumph

[21:12] right and that's why Chinese examinations are mostly based on confusionism philosophy so you have to memorize the uh what the and all these things memorize and interpret in your way however being say education Then in China that shaped current day Chinese thinking is not about what you have been educated.

[21:36] It's about the importance of education, importance of moderation. Chongyong means moderation. The importance of have critical mindset. The importance to have up up um how to say um high moral values.

[21:55] Right? And there are few interesting point that Confucious bring that I would like to share with your audience. Right. Please. Confucious say a punishment by the law if is of deterrence effect it's unfair to the to the uh defendant. Why? Because the portion of punishment to be inflicted on a defendant for deterrence effect is off what he has committed. He has stolen an apple. He should have been punished with a fine of 100 ringit per se but you punish him with the fine of 500 ringit to deter other people then the 400 ringit is unfair to him. That's what confuser

[22:39] said. So confuser have his own moral values oral standard. It's not just about that. So the ad academics throughout the entire Chinese civilization is not to to tell you what is right or wrong. It's about building your moral sess to build a character. There's a saying you take it takes 10 years to build a to to grow a tree 100 years to grow a man. So there's education in man Chinese. I mean, let me wrap it up a bit, Bernie, in in terms of what I want the audience to understand

[23:14] from both what you just said and from what I learned from the breedings that I do on this uh on on this uh examination that was carried out during that period. What happens then is actually critical thinking

[23:30] and not just the memorization of factual secular uh philosophy. It's also a buildup of critical thinking and like what you say when you have to debate what then becomes uh the moral impurity for the government

[23:49] in order to uh punish some um some some some uh something that is let's say uh a sin that was carried out right uh it's not coming out of edi you have to Think

[24:06] you have to think. So that's the whole point of a system. And you go up from the thousands or the h the hundreds of thousands of scholars then of scholars then you get whittleled down to a few thousand then to a few hundred and then

[24:21] to three to Yes. So it is a very rigorous and very challenging education system. That's right. Right. And he became a priority in the Chinese community that actually it becomes a culture

[24:37] in the Chinese community even when they go overseas and they become ch ethnic Chinese anywhere in the world this has been ingrained in their culture. Yep. Yeah. So that's the difference I also see when I look at our Malay community.

[24:54] Right. Um the funny part is when I was growing up and I keep saying this when I was growing up it is so simple in a sense that maybe maybe my family is an exception I don't know but having said that I look at both my maternal and my paternal side of the family we were in pan

[25:19] right um I would say that almost like the Chinese community Mhm. both my paternal side and maternal side of the clan value education first.

[25:40] You know the religious side of it in spite of actually one of my great uncle was an ulawa. Okay. But his his library was full of all sorts of books.

[26:02] Um so I don't know whether I was uh graced differently but uh then going into high school, primary school, high school, I was at college. I was alust and then I went to Suta Abdhale in Chitra

[26:20] uh for my form four and form five. Uh my warden was a religious uh uh okay but he himself advocated secular education first as a priority and that was basically in the early '7s.

[26:41] Okay. So something something had happened in the Malay community. If you say all right, we said that I had always had a question myself. How did Malay uh go from being basically maybe Buddhist and Hindus?

[27:01] Okay. Into Islam. Mhm. I have a I have a theory about that. And my theory is basically as a feudal society you follow your your sultan

[27:15] your lords convert you convert okay uh and that was how actually really how uh malays become Muslims that's my hypothesis

[27:28] right so that went for for for thousands of years for I mean couple a few hundred years since let's say if we take the 1511 of the malaka Sultenate being invaded by the Portuguese, right?

[27:42] And until today, but then we had the British come in and secular education become somewhat of a prominent and priority. And then that comes through even after the uh the the the uh independence

[27:59] and I saw that growing up. Somehow that changed. M am I right that somehow around the 80s in my opinion that flipped I don't think it's the 80s

[28:13] you don't think it's the 80s it's far before that we need to look from the developmental from a historical aspect worldwide that leads to the 80s so this is how it works there's two way to interpret a religion but I can draw them a verical line the educated way and the less educated way the less educ Educated manner to interpret a religion is blindly follow literally whether educated ways like a lawyer always trained to interpret the law especially a statute of a parliament there are many ways the literal approach the propulsive approach and then there's many way why is this

[28:56] statute was enacted by the parliament to begin with so if you interpret critically your own religion religion in a manner there will be a lot of school of thought that's where your imafi your imaf this thing comes out same goes to the Buddhist the wajana same go Christian you have protestant you have methodist you have true Jesus and and the list goes on and on it is a healthy and unhealthy thing from different context so what happened then the thing that actually changed the world is the first industrial revolution in UK I I I mark that Before industrial revolution,

[29:35] Oxford and Cambridge preliminarily offers theology classes. Dude, this discussion is going so far away from our team. Never mind. I will lead I will lead back to here. But let's put it this way. I I who gives a Let's continue. I love this.

[29:51] Yes. Okay. And you have to write a thesis in Latin. Okay. After industrial revolution, practicalism, pragmatism came into place. It's no point for the British to pray to the god every day. What about creating a food with thin preservations? What about building a ship that can sail without the need of wind? What about building a railroads that can run faster than a horse? That's where circular education starts to get its momentum.

[30:17] You know what I think? Okay, let's let's before that to that circular studies were called alchemist in the past were called physician in the past and they were outcast from the religious boundary and they were not welllike. Galio Galile was forced to apologize to the church. So that was 16 17th centuries. So when this thing comes I I that's why I say it's not 80s. It's beyond

[30:42] no no no I I think I think I think I think you got me wrong when Yeah. I think you got me wrong when I say that way. I was when I said 80s, I was referring to the Malay community. Okay. Now, I come back to this Malay community specifically. But if I I but I do want to touch where you you go because I'm also I I I I'm a I'm a student of science.

[31:03] Okay. Right. Fair enough. And I look at things in terms of the industrial revolution. M uh I go back to the Renaissance and I even go back to actually to me one of the biggest changes in Europe and the secular education in uh in terms of also the uh what you interestingly put actually the mazs

[31:27] okay the uh innocent sex okay in Europe they fought almost what a 100 year war y 30 years war 100 years war in order to because why the faith dome uh of each nobility wanted to have wanted to be legitimized

[31:45] by the Christian religion and they adopted certain sex and they were fighting each other for for for this particular for just more than anything else because of politics. Yep.

[31:57] Right. M so if I were to go back to I mean when you talk about uh even Islam if you go back to the soal what used to be said the glory days of Islam

[32:13] actually there were many sexs yep right um and there were many interpretation and they were allowed to flourish y they were allowed to debate okay this the uh and that's when you get You've got uh you know uh all the other ones I' I start is the one that come to my mind right now but um you know uh quarismi all these people

[32:39] okay because why because they were allowed to question yep critical thinking I think uh the biggest disservice to uh uh the people of uh of of of the Muslim faith is when Al Gazali uh basically called out all these uh physical uh theologians. All right. The ulama the meaning of ulama is actually learned people.

[33:08] It's got nothing to do with religious religion authority. Yeah. So the clerics in Yeah. Because um then I mean people like is an ammo.

[33:20] All right. It's people who are learned. Yeah. Right. But then because of their questioning Mhm. Okay. They got labeled as heretic. You only have to go to I'm not making this up to go go to go to Gazali's book himself.

[33:37] Uh he called he practically called Iblus a heretic and that by itself actually stopped the uh stopped the the the progression of science. I'm talking from a theologian point of view, not Islamic point of view which I agree.

[33:51] No no I'm just looking from a historical standpoint. Right. And then and then once you get the the religion flourishing by means of uh conquest and also by means of trade

[34:07] right and now we go back we come back to peninsula right uh and the sultan becomes a Muslim and the subjects followed through right then you are talking about control

[34:20] and if you only you don't need to have examination ations the way the Chinese did. Okay. And you have a small fear of dome or city states that you can control. Right. Everything become an addict.

[34:35] Mhm. Right. Whatever Whatever the king says absolute monarchy power. Absolute monarchy. That's wrong. Right. If he says if he says you got to go and kill Jabat,

[34:49] there is no question of uh there's no question of paneer. Yes. Absolute absolute power. Yes. So, but and there comes where we are.

[35:01] Um where when I was growing up education the way the Chinese was looking at it, I found that that was actually how the Malay community at least my clan and also in my school

[35:16] uh myst wanted us to be very very successful. Mhm. Uh in our secular education. Mhm. Right. He really emphasized that which today would be uh would be an anomaly.

[35:34] Right. Yep. And that's where I say I already saw this change. Mhm. In the 80s this flip. Okay. Um after I came back because I did not see because obviously I went I went overseas.

[35:49] That's where I went back to defer. Please do. Okay. Please do. having I mean strictly go to uh go to uh go back to where we are at in in Samanong in the Malay community. Let's let's let's talk about you back to the 80s. I saw

[36:07] this is that is what I see. Remember I went to university in after SPM. Mhm. So I left the shores uh at around end of 1981.

[36:21] Fair. Okay. So I don't know anything. Mhm. Uh of what had happened. I wasn't born yet. I should not be knowing but I know something. Okay. Can but you

[36:33] uh your disagreement with me in terms of the flip of uh of of culture is the observations please. Okay. I want to hear your point of view. Okay. Um well I cannot be 100% sure that whether I should disagree with you but the data

[36:52] damn you just disagree. We don't be 100% unsure. I disagree but not 100%. Yeah. So, so that's because the manner you extracted the um data that then is based on personal feelings and based on your personal observation. So, the very same thing I would like to say that the literacy rate during 1957 up to 1960s is less than 30%.

[37:19] Okay. Go on. Okay. And that is when literacy rates was judged based on those who can complete a primary education. Right? If you're talking about so we are talking about what Malay Malaya okay Chinese Malay Indian included included included okay we got to figure out what is the demographic of that 30%

[37:38] let's put Chinese Malay Indian in the same thing okay that time 60s7s those like your good self even I'm reaching the end of ' 80s who can attain a bachelor degree a crap you are the minority you are not the majority you live in you were born in Pandang you were raised in Kada in Kal Sutah Abdul Hammed and then subsequently Suta Abdul Halim school and

[38:04] which is a fully boarding school and then you pursued your degree in engineering you are less than 5% of the population no I think less than 1%

[38:16] there you go so your observation about liberal arts who encourage circular studies only confide within that 1%. Where 90% of the Chinese, Indian and Malay out there are still living in their bubble and are still living within the conservative education because they don't even have full education and you do not have access to them.

[38:42] Okay, here's where actually I I I I know it's anecdotal, right? But I'm saying I know it's anecdotal. Mh. Uh because both my clan, my maternal and paternal

[38:54] Mhm. also behave the same way which is basically they want to see uh their children which is my uncles succeed in the in the so-called secular world. Um in fact two of my uncles uh went to get degrees in America.

[39:10] Um um most of my uncles mind I ask a question? Yeah. Your grandparents had a lot of Chinese friends. Um I think uh on the on my paternal side

[39:24] uh I think we were more we were more open in the sense that we because we live in Panang and we moved to Aayita. So and my my grandpa could speak Hokan. Okay.

[39:39] And can speak Tamil. In fact his son shop uh if you if if you are an Indian he will speak Tamil to you. All right. So if you if you come in a Chinese, he will take speak Chinese.

[39:51] I I would I would categorize your grandparents at then a straight settlements mindset. Not even Chinese. So now my maternal side pula, okay, are very much um petty farmers.

[40:04] Okay. Okay. So that Balik Pula settlement, okay, is a very Malay settlement. It's that's it's a there are very few Chinese. Mhm. But obviously I still remember going to

[40:17] Kongi, right? Okay. Going to Kongi. We had such a harmonious way of living. Yep. But I unfortunately I have to tell you Yeah.

[40:29] that the harmonious way of living are strictly confined to those in a very specific area where majority of them are educated. Point number one or in a Kong area where minority succumb to the practices and culture of the majority like a China in Kalantan Kongu

[40:52] possibly possibly the rest we which you do not have access with those days are actually confined to their very own cultural bubble community bubble

[41:04] where you do not have access that's why your observation are not the majority correct okay so and these people don't get to tell their stories Yeah. But the only thing is I want to say is that even then even my maternal side

[41:16] uh my mom finished his her standard six and became a school teacher. Right. And then actually two or two two of my other uncles from my also were teachers.

[41:28] Yeah. So and one to university and took engineering. Mhm. So you see I mean even my anecdotal experience cuz this is two very different uh side origin you know

[41:42] one side I can understand very well my father's side I can understand very well uh they could be that 1% bubble okay my maternal side I'm thinking to myself I say why are they also like that in terms of

[41:57] the education they emphasize right okay then I go to But you say school isani, right? Where we mix races, right? I was in Ibrahim school.

[42:09] You are my senior. Really? I'm from Ibrahim school. You're from Ibrahim school? That's correct. Bloody hell. We produced three speakers in which 20204. What? What? What? What? Where did you stay?

[42:25] That's right. Apple you know one of my best friend hey I'm going to shout out to Bernardet no uh Bernard was I think he is GM of Sony corporation

[42:39] okay he was from actually he uh was the one who really supported me in my first business when I was doing broadcast engineer oh okay so hi

[42:52] now action what new so So you were like umani is very in a way multi-racial town. Y yeah and bless my dad uh he was special.

[43:11] Mhm. Uh our but then again let's not talk about that. I have another episode with my sister on that. Um now what you're saying so that from my anecdotal I'm like that doesn't quite compute but you may be right. I may be even in that bubble.

[43:29] Yeah. Right. I may be even in that probably 10% bubble. Yep. Okay. Mhm. So tell me what you saw or how you observe. Mhm. Uh where I thought I I thought the flip came in the 80s but you felt it was a lot better than that. Can you please tell me that? Sorry. Yeah. I spoken too long. No worries. My apologies.

[43:49] I have to raise a historical incident called May 13, 1969. Right. 1969 is a day where we have racial riots and that was in the late60s but that's mainly mostly but it happens I I I mean it was basically

[44:04] qual actually when qualo is the main instigator it instigated trivial but real things in tanjung malim in other parts small

[44:20] affected that is because when the government comes in with at emergency uh rules um with curfew order or this thing it will suppress immediately within a day but that is not the point the point is it happens when it happens where we always think that Malaysian all races live in harmonious situation and it only got disrupted

[44:41] in the modern times that was quite an inaccurate hypothesis where in the past we do not know each other and henceforth we don't make friends or enemy with each other in terms of majority so you're talking about the 60s now the 50s and 60s

[44:54] 50s 60s7s. Okay. Okay. So personally now I put my own anector please where all these uncles of my generation which is your generation right

[45:06] told me how good it was in the past then my next question is where did you where Chinese Malaya India live harmoniously then my question was that where did you study? I study St. John institution Victoria institution college pinang free school I said you guys are the 1% you have no idea absolutely what happened in Greek what happened in Tanjung malim what happened in ra what happened in the kong baru China here and there all this thing they have literally no access to other races and they don't know the Chinese wouldn't have known what the five solut like is they don't know they don't know

[45:47] the difference between the umrah and hami and the malay wouldn't have know what is hungry ghost they wouldn't have know what is this and that no they only know Chinese new year they have to give anga and they wouldn't have know what is why I always get anga when I was 7 years old from the auntie next door

[46:01] yeah but do you know what is chongyang have you heard about any other Chinese practices those days you don't only the maj major one but that is not the point is we are living in a bubble for the 1% and these are educated people and henceforth it's easier for this one person to inherit their memory.

[46:20] Okay. So in your opinion outside of that bubble y okay outside of that bubble in your opinion that the religion was really the number numero uno in terms of their priority.

[46:34] It wasn't until later stage. So this is how it works. What do you mean by later stage? Later stage means that's why I say I'm not sure whether I disagree 100% or not. 80s I would say 80s where you have political movement like Ankatambia Islam Malaysia where you have I'm no fighting the past that leads to that leads the direction towards Islamization in a political manner but that is not the not even the hypothesis

[47:01] you're actually agreeing with me that's why I say I agree I I don't totally disagree with you 100% but what I want you to to to very very straight like 1950s. 1950s. Okay. Okay. So I always told my my my religious scholarly Muslim friend right

[47:45] in the olden days in Tana. So you when you talk about religiously scholarly Muslim friend at what age are you talking to them at about about your your

[47:58] I'm 62 buddy. Yeah most of my friends are 50 60 70s. Okay never mind. It's a personal I need to understand the perspective, the context. Okay? It's it's what I say. It's not what they they they say. Okay? I say in the olden days, there's no Islamic law. There's no Islamic science, Islamic mathematic algebra. There is no Islamic this and that. It's only science. It's only law. Is only this and that. Sharia law is not Islamic law. It's the law. Algebra is not Islamic mathematic. It's the mathematic.

[48:36] It has always been the mathematic. Now today, today they they want to make it a relig Islamic related and circular. There's no circular subject in Tana Arab those days those are subject. Yeah.

[48:53] I mean the secular as a perception. So now what happened in the ' 60s, '7s, ' 80s, '90s in Malaysia, it tends to segregate Pidan Islam, tasaw Islam, tamadun Islam from nonIslam. Actually when we study algebra, x equals to y + 2, that was invented by the ancient Islamic civilization.

[49:21] As far as I'm concerned, it's it's its name algebra. Okay. Because it was it's always the the the the naming rights belong to the people who actually invented it.

[49:35] Right. It for human civilization. It doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter. uh now so why are we what happens now from my observation is that the less educated uh way to interpret the religion is to call for a very clear definitive line this is Islam this

[49:58] that is not okay so that's a that's a good observation I give you I will give you that okay for approximately 15 16 years before there was a movement to call for replacement of common always sharing out but those people got it wrong. There are cases that we do not have precedence. So when we do not have precedence a judge or a lawyer will try to convince a judge to use maxim the Latin maxim like he used them generies like men sura all these Latin terms as a foundation to apply the law where we don't have precedence nor statute statute about that but there was a call to replace it

[50:37] with shar principles instead of maxim maxim about 15 16 years ago I think z Ibrahim or nazir ais was a minister of law them there was a call but it was shot because people simply could not understand. I said it's fine. If Sharia law is the law in Arab Saudi Arabia, then there is not a Sharia law. It's the law. It's law. Okay. So when we call a definitive line between Sharia and common law, that's where we have a force going against that. When we draw a line between Islamic education and secular education. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we have to break the definitive thing

[51:19] by interpreting the religion from a less educated manner to a educated manner like your us like your amama uncle who has a collection of secular books and all these things because it's part of whatever religion that you are at even being a Buddhist being a Muslim being a Hindu the knowledge is part of your religion.

[51:43] Oh yeah. Yep. I think I think actually your thesis and my thesis are actually the same same the same but the the difference is I don't understand the thing is is is this

[51:58] you brought up the subject of actually when you talk about Zahed uh you know uh you talk about the influx and all that and that came around the the late '7s.

[52:10] Oh really? Yeah. So you are looking at it uh actually from the same point of view. Whilst you may think I have this disease, I think the English had a lot of influence

[52:24] over all of Mallaya irrespective of uh of the race. Mhm. Okay. Including from the sultan side, you know, in including royalties.

[52:38] Okay. uh because the royalties and the uh the the Malay bangsawan class at that particular time the nobilities Mhm. Okay. were all educated in the UK,

[52:52] you know, and they came back and it's it all filtered down. What's the core principle you are bringing up from this thing? Okay. The core principle I'm bringing up is that I think my hypothesis is correct. We the Malays

[53:07] were actually I know that you want to separate between so we separate just for the sake of argument right and I agree with you. I agree that the uh that the pane uh at once upon a time there was only law

[53:23] at once whether it was in uh uh in the Arab nations or even in the European nations there is only law and those law originate from whatever culture or ideology or religious influence

[53:40] right the common law in Britain has a lot to uh that come from uh Latin and Christian, Roman and Christian maxim, Greek, Greek maxim, right? Same goes with uh the laws in the Middle East

[53:57] uh and the laws therefore at that particular time before the British came along. But once the British came along and stayed here for a few hundred years. Mhm. Right. Um that and in calculate their law.

[54:12] Mhm. incalculate their version of civilization into the uh especially the Malay community. I would say especially the Malay community than than the other communities. Maybe Indian community uh is more affected compared to the Chinese community.

[54:29] Maybe I'm wrong. Okay. But I would say that the British had a lot of influence overall. I agree. Okay. M and therefore what I saw was not an anomaly of the 1%.

[54:44] Mhm. What I saw was common. Mhm. The change came actually in the 70s. Uh the impact was uh the movement of Muslim Brotherhood that was started by Hassan Alban.

[54:59] Okay. In Egypt. Okay. That was in the late60s. Mhm. Okay. Um and that movement uh where basically it it it is a political movement.

[55:13] Mhm. I'm not sure whether you're familiar with this or our audience. So I'm going to do a bit of teaching on this. Okay. This movement is a movement where they want to bring back the caliphate of Islam.

[55:26] Mhm. To actually be the uh uh the leader of the global world. M all right so this movement spread uh and this is the movement that the Muslim Brotherhood movement or Jama uh I think it's called Islam I mean how how do I this one I I can't but basically it's a Muslim Brotherhood right um uh and and and that was that was uh and this become a subversive movement within the Middle East.

[56:02] Mhm. Okay. And that started out in Egypt itself. Okay. North Africa. Uh and it culminated uh the catalyst of this Islamic revivalist movement

[56:14] uh was catalyzed by the overthrow of the Shah of Iran. The during the Iranian revolution. Okay. Uh and Kmeni came to power. M so for the Muslim world and originating from Iran

[56:29] uh it was it was the triumph of uh the Islamic way of life or political Islam over the western philosophy or western ideology and that became the catalyst. M

[56:45] I still remember this very very well uh because it was quite uh quite evident on campus in campuses where um uh a lot of Malay Mians were around.

[56:59] Mhm. uh it was not as apparent where I went to school because I didn't really mix uh with Mian but where I saw um uh in where a lot of Malaysians this and a lot of friends that were actually going to school in UK

[57:16] uh were very much uh in fact if you talk to my friend Professor Taj he would tell you uh of uh this impact on his campus. Mhm. uh and how it become from the the difference between he come from where he did not come from where the dogma

[57:37] um where you don't question. Mhm. He came from where you question on the revivalist. Okay. Okay. So that that actually uh made him different. Okay. All right. But the revivalism of this caliphate theory

[57:52] okay then was transferred here especially because of Hadi and Ano Ibrahim who actually for who were the founders of Abib okay the Akatan is mentioned

[58:06] and this was very damaging to the country okay because why we have now actually imported the Muslim Brotherhood okay and it is militant at it very core it is militant. Okay. But because in the early times okay uh it had to deal with uh uh uh not as much majority power.

[58:31] Mhm. And we had to compromise between the races. Mhm. And have a more secular outlook at that particular time because of we just come out from the British. We must not also deduct the fact that we are under communist threat then.

[58:44] And we were also under communist threat. Correct. So the segregation got but that was already but that was that ends in ' 80s. Yeah. The communist threat were were were done by the end of '7s. Yeah. But we still have the cold war and we are

[58:57] well I I don't think the cold war impacted us as that much. The cold war where we have Soviet pack and communist is still a threat until the end of 17. You must you must remember you know you were not born. Yeah. Yet okay. There were no um uh I mean wearing of the hijab or tudong. Yeah, I was still not a thing.

[59:17] I was still I was still I was uh uh uh Ano's wife was the first cabinet member to ever wear that. Okay. I wouldn't have comment on that because it's a personal choice.

[59:32] No, I don't care. I don't care. As I as you said, it is a personal choice. It is. It should have remained a personal choice, right? Uh but then you know, peer pressure is peer pressure, right? But the whole thing is this. The whole thing is that that was the revivalism that came on board. Okay. That birth pass and Mahade wanted to counter pass and actually brought in Ano Ibrahim into

[59:56] I was aware about that. Right. Okay. And and and by giving to him the education ministry. All right. Uh had a great impact on how our education was transformed.

[1:00:11] Mhm. Okay. Where it became more religiously focused. Okay. Uh when previously we were more scientifically and mathematically focused.

[1:00:24] Mhm. Okay. So this is where I see the difference is and where we as a society lies in terms of uh how uh the polarization started. M because why? Once it becomes very very difficult for you be to worry about your utensils I mean kitchen uh in in uh in in uh school need to be closed during Ramadan

[1:01:00] uh or you have to have different um you know uh uh segregation between children. Mhm. Uh where they eat now that now that causes polarization.

[1:01:15] Well, I leave it to you as a Muslim to comment on that matter. But I do have this piece of advice that I just mentioned before the recording started. Yeah. I always ask friends who are very indulged into education, Islamic education to their children. I would say well done. Good job. Islam is a beautiful religion. I love to see people who are pious and this thing but but but listen hear me out. If there is a 30 years old prof PhD who is a physics PhD from Cambridge University and there is a 30 years old PhD in Islamic studies from Al Aaha University and both preaching Islam who

[1:01:56] carries more weight. I would tell you that 90% of my Muslim friends they are asked from the general connotations will agree that the Cambridgeborn PhD physics who are preaching Islam carry more weight to non-Muslims and when you when when when education is in place the Chinese the difference between Chinese and other races is that we do not emphasize on what to be educated we emphasize the important importance of education itself. It can be vocational, it can be professional, it can be philosophical, it can be anything as so long as you are educated. Whereas um Hindus and Muslims

[1:02:43] place it really I did not say I did not condemn that this is not good but my my wrapping up is that such that it education must fits the criteria of not contradicting the religion beliefs first then only education like for example if there is a arm of educated uh subject subject to be educated it's against religion in his own concern. He may not want to pursue but now it's not Chinese. Education is education.

[1:03:17] It's separated. It's separated. And that can be said Malay are Muslims in Malaysia. There's no non-Muslim by law. That's by law. And also in reality even in real in realism Malay are Muslims in Malaysia by law and by practice by by practice most of my Tamil friends most are Hindus with Christians with Catholics and so but I can't tell you that what are the majority beliefs of Chinese you have Buddhist you have tawist you have Christian you have Muslim and it seems to me that You cannot judge Chinese by religion. So this is what I tell

[1:04:02] my friends from Clantan pass. I say if you are trying to sell to Chinese that pass actually built the biggest Buddhist temple in Klantan have quill in Kant that doesn't appeal to me.

[1:04:17] I don't know when was the last time I went to a Buddhist temple when Muslim and when Hindus go to temple in a very frequented temple. I don't feel free to condemn me as unreligious but I don't I I could not.

[1:04:29] No, no, I think you're right. You're absolutely right because because when times come where I need to make a choice, I only have one ringit in my hand. That one ringit invertedly will go to school rather than a Buddhist temple. I think Buddha will agrees with me. So that is the difference between Chinese and other races in terms of education. And why I came about that Chinese history part is I'm trying to explain to the audience how does this feeling how does this blood actually was formed since millennia ago about the importance of education. So if you are trying to tear

[1:05:05] down a mosque Muslim will get very angry at you. If you are trying to tear down a Hindu temple Hindus are very angry at you. But if you try down a Chinese nattoong or ch Chinese are angry but not but try to close down a Chinese school. Yes, the feeling is the same.

[1:05:28] You know this is very very interesting to me. I love what we you just uh opened up my eyes actually about this. I never thought about it that way. M you know um and I I can understand it now that when I talk to my Chinese friends which I have a lot because why being a private sector businessman you cannot help but circle yourself with a lot of Chinese business friends. Okay, that's you know that's that's the nature of our that's of our economics in Malaysia, right?

[1:05:57] Okay, so now I understand the their way of thinking and why the Chinese education is extremely important, right? And actually if we are to compete as Malaysians, right? That means that the I mean with that kind of mindset, it's always cultural mindset,

[1:06:16] okay? you will always lose out to the guy who puts education first. Education must be number one and everything else. Because why? Because if you put a It's just like this. I've always said this. Okay. People don't realize this. Uh I'm a big American football fan.

[1:06:35] Oh, okay. U so I understand because it's a very specialized uh sport, but then I'll talk about soccer or football as they call it, right? M uh and I was listening to David Beckham talking about how Messi was the first to come into the uh training facility every morning

[1:06:52] before anybody else and he would be the last to go back. That's how he become the best footballer irrespective of his talent. Okay. You see talent alone every high performing individual uh that I've heard of

[1:07:06] Mhm. always have the same story. I'm a big fan of basketball. So, you know, I know Michael Jordan's story inside out. I'm a big fire fan of golf. Those guys are fanatic in terms of how they train because why? That's how they become better than everybody else. They don't spend their time. Jordan doesn't spend his time going bicycling.

[1:07:32] He spends his time doing golf. So, if you want to be good at mathematics, you spend most of your time doing mathematics. If you want to be good at science, you spend most of your time doing science. That's right. Right. In a bell curve, because in a population in a bell curve, right? You can tell me, oh yeah, uh there are, you know, toughen or whoever this one who are very good at this, you can do mathematic and all that. Yeah, but you're talking about an anomaly at the end of the at the end of the bell curve. You're not talking about the 80% or the 90% that that that are going to be

[1:08:13] behind others that are giving you priority. And I want to I want to say this because you brought this this subject matter up, you know, about the dogmatic way where you just listen and follow and the thinking way

[1:08:28] where actually you question and you come up with your own reasoning. Even in Islam during the golden days or I have a one of my good friends when I was in Sutali was a guy by the name of of okay now Chipad is an atheist. All right.

[1:08:47] Okay. And I used to have conversations with him and explaining to him about Islam. I can tell you one thing. Mhm. He said this to me. You're the only person I could talk to about religion.

[1:09:00] Why? Exactly the way you said it correct because I was talking to him from the point of view of science and physics educated way of interpreting it and we were debating about and which is cause and effect

[1:09:18] because it's it is supposedly God knows everything before it happened right so I I don't want to go into this and get into another trouble but it's as simple as is he listened to how I explained that.

[1:09:34] Mhm. And he says he goes h okay yeah you know so a person who is scientifically educated can actually impress upon non-Muslims

[1:09:52] you know whereas someone who is trained dogmatically talking to non-Muslim actually you guys are going to laugh at him you know this is I think this is the same across all

[1:10:05] across the board across all the religion. So the same thing that if let's say Christianity a lot of people try to preach to me as well. Yeah. So if there is a very wellestablished gentleman of a social stature who are educated talk in a humble manner say zi um Jesus so and so h it's more prone then a dumatic person will say you must believe in this because you will be to whatever

[1:10:35] okay then let's take let's take it back to where we are in terms of our uh where we are and then let's try and wrap it up in in in this in this in terms of the polarization

[1:10:51] right I think education is key for us to stop it is not about whether I think um is that that is not the motion to r up let me tell you one thing Chinese and Malay we all know that education is important so what's the difference

[1:11:08] right what kind of education exactly Yeah. So the definition of education is what we need to sort out because different race, different religion, different people have different interpretation is what is education. So I actually seen um some family they refuse to send their kids to school. They say I'm going to do homeschooling. I'm going to teach my son. I say what are you teaching? Science, mathematics. Oh, I'm going to teach religious studies. Don't ask me what religion. I'm not going to reveal over here. But that is how he defined education.

[1:11:38] Education is important for him. But it's about religion education. I said what education is more important. So that is what we should discuss to wrap this conversation up. For me, religious education is religious education. Circular education is secular education. For Muslims, for non-Muslims, where religion is of concern, religious education is as important as secular education. You cannot prioritize one against each other. I I beg to defer

[1:12:15] and then I for me that is to formulate the correct for me if you if you want to do education right for me education is um you can call it secular

[1:12:29] or you don't have to call it secular it is just education okay to me it is just education whether it's science mathematics biology physics uh music poetry literature these are all educ education. In fact, if you talk about uh comparative religion,

[1:12:47] okay, which I do a lot, people don't realize. I read the Torah, I read the Bible, I read uh philosophy of the Torah, uh the Abrahamic religion. Yeah.

[1:12:59] Yeah. I mean, I've read uh I've I mean I I mean, obviously, I don't really know. I've read the you know u the philosophy of confucious and and and and and how is louser and all that but I forgotten that a long time ago already

[1:13:18] because I'm just normally curious right but for me comparative religion or theoretical uh uh historical uh understanding of religion is part and parcel of education. Yeah.

[1:13:32] Now, uh when you talk about um uh uh a religion, whether it's how you pray, whether how the religion teaches you about uh the scripture, talk about the scripture, talk about your interpretation. To me, that is religion.

[1:13:57] It's not an education. Okay? So I would separate that out as being religious um well for lack of better word. Okay. Um ideological uh uh uh what do you call ide so

[1:14:22] I opt to disagree but I get your point but to it's a very personal thing. It's a very personal. So then then you take that into the personal domain. Okay. Let me um you take that into the personal domain.

[1:14:34] Because why? If we don't do that. Mhm. Right. One race that puts that kind of that puts ideology just like in China like just like if I say the communist ideology

[1:14:49] is going to be your priority. Mhm. Right. You mean enforce it on another person on top of it? All right. on top of this one, China wouldn't be what it is today. Okay, fair. Right. China is what it is today

[1:15:04] because if you look at almost all their political uh their political people in spite of so-called communist party but they really not a I mean they are a single party I call it a single party system you know.

[1:15:22] Yeah. But why did I wanted to incorporate with they all engineers that country is run by engineers? I know I've been to that country more than any other country. So my saying is this um let's say confusionism is a religion. Let's say talism is a religion. Buddhism is a religion because these three

[1:15:48] school of thought some question they are not I I prefer that way of saying okay that a school of thoughts okay y okay but never mind it's all right which is ideology y so for me for as a Chinese I view religion and define religion is to formulate a being in three aspect wisdom knowledge and morality. Wisdom is by experience. It's a form of education by to to get you.

[1:16:22] You don't need religion for wisdom. Wait. And then the former education for knowledge there are family school, your high school and all this thing and your religious regardless of what religion and so long that is a wellrecoognized major religion in the world on your personal moral growth and three to make a perfect being. So three different things. Whereas someone who is atheist like your friend Liman your name come out twice already but

[1:16:54] okay instead of religion we have moral studies. So it's work is it works the same. You have your Islamic studies, you have your Buddhist studies, your Hindu studies, your Christian studies, your moral studies and that is to formulate basic morality in the person and go to your schools and that is for your knowledge and go for your training your work read and that's for your experience and three of those forms my view on the definition of education and because education must be holistic. It cannot be only on knowledge, only on wisdom and thing. And that I've wrapped up for this

[1:17:35] interview. I I'm I'm going to do a counter to that in a I have to not to say because I I want to have the last word, but I feel that actually when you bring up three subject, right?

[1:17:48] Being wise. Being wise is about experience. Okay. It's got nothing to do with whatever religion you are. Okay. Being wise is about experience which include knowledge of religion.

[1:18:01] Whether it is your religion or somebody else's religion or other people's religion is irrelevant. True. Okay. Being wise is a function of experience.

[1:18:14] Second, you said about knowledge. Knowledge. Okay. Knowledge is about how much knowledge you have irrespective of the kind of knowledge that you are involved in. Y

[1:18:27] uh if you don't want to use the word secular uh law, music, engineering, law, anything, economics and all that. Yes, I agree. I agree with you on on the on the basics of knowledge and that also include the basics of knowledge of your religion

[1:18:46] or other people's religion. Okay, that's knowledge. Okay, as I said, uh in spite of you, whoever say, "Hey, dude, I know I think I know more about Islam than a lot of you guys." Okay, who seem to think that you know Islam and keep lecturing me about Islam, okay? I know more about it. I just don't want to brag about it to you guys. All right,

[1:19:12] the third one. So, knowledge is everything. Y All right. character. Yeah, knowledge is everything. But the problem with uh the modern world is if you are not prepared on as much uh practical knowledge, I call it practical knowledge in order for you to uh survive in this competitive world. Um you'll be left behind.

[1:19:35] I agree. All right. To the fullest. So the third one is what? Moral character. All right. Moral and character to me is equivalent to the first part. which is uh I give you an example which is which is which is wisdom wisdom but I give you example but there is a different before we go let me let me finish first and then you can come okay then you this one because uh p you okay whilst I say is to a certain extent there's a uh there's a correlation to wisdom okay but moral and character is about culture is about upbringing is about how You were brought up as a person uh by your society and your

[1:20:20] culture and your family upbringing and everything else that make you a person. I always say this about character. Okay, by the time you're 16 to 18 years old, your character is almost fully formed. Okay, the Malay has a has a saying about it. Okay? Because by the time it becomes bul uh no matter what you do, you know, the only thing that will happen is the bulo is going to break.

[1:20:50] Okay? Because you cannot change it anymore. All right? And that character which forms inclusive of morality, his moral uh grounding does you know I mean there is a component of religion,

[1:21:08] a component. Okay. But that moral character also include about what you think about free speech, what you think about right and wrong.

[1:21:20] Okay? What you and that moral character people can be as religious as you can. All right. But still they suck billion from the

[1:21:36] Mhm. Okay. So character has really not be hinge on actually religion. Religion is only a small part of it. Okay, that's my

[1:21:50] uh rebuttal to your uh closing word. But as a guest that I enjoy talking, I want to give him uh another opportunity to actually close it.

[1:22:05] Close this conversation. I'm enjoying this but uh you know you know give your best a closing for us. Okay. What would you love to see how we change the country in terms of uh have the races become more I I feel that this is where we are headed to be

[1:22:29] that that that you know instead of diversion that we come closer together. I almost become an atheist but decided to adopt a religion for one thing. That is one aspect of what elements of all religion that comes in similarity in great similarity called compassion. So if Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians or even atheists adopted that compassionate thought of our respective religion, there won't be hatred anymore. Politician would not have break us apart. So my conclusive remark for tonight is why I place character and moral as important as wisdom as knowledge.

[1:23:22] Because with wisdom and knowledge you may be great and good businessman he ask you very good but you have no compassion you don't donate you don't help other people simply there's no practical reason for you to do so without a religion guidance regardless of what religion so my conclusive remark is if all of us regardless of race and religion adopted that compassionate part from either Allah either God Jehovah, either Buddha, Shakamuni, Buddha, either La or any of our religious uh leadership or supreme being. There is no more hatred, there is no more anger, there is no more

[1:24:09] segregation, there's nothing. If we are true believer of our own religion and practically it cannot be done, education cannot be done. Wisdom is not sufficient enough. Only religion can break through this barrier and with that thank you for that. Only religion can break through what barrier.

[1:24:30] Okay? Because religion requires faith and faith does not need explanation and with that faith that in instill compassion in us. You do not need to explain why do you need to be compassion simply because you have faith in your religion. Thus you have to be compassionate. You have to be forgiving. You have to be helpful. Though it's impractical from a knowledge and wisdom point of view as a businessman, as a employer, why should I?

[1:25:00] So basically you wrap it up in a sense that what is only religion can ask you to do this very thing about compassion because compassion is impractical. Compassion may make you feel better but it's not practical to your business and all these things. Only religion can you think so God will reward you. The universe will reward you. The rumor is to tell you that you have good karma. It's the right thing to do though. It's the wrong thing financially to help this guy. It's wrong financially to donate your money. It's wrong. It's impractical for you to spend your time and all this thing to do

[1:25:37] voluntary work. But you have to do it because you have faith in religion, right? I I I I would say, okay, that's his rap. I really, you know, enjoy this conversation. Um my uh

[1:25:52] I thought you twice already. I know. I know. I know. I know. I just want to say this about compassion. I believe that it is part and parcel of character. Um I don't think that religion has a monopoly on making you compassionate. Um I still remember when I don't even understand religion. Um uh I can see when I was a a small young boy there are things I cannot see uh I you know if I see an animal uh that is hurt you will have I will have to get up and and help it and that's got nothing to do with religion at all. is just part and parcel of uh the human condition if you are.

[1:26:35] But you know I do want to say this though shall I end this conversation with a quote from uh uh with a quote from uh one of the biggest ulama on earth. Okay. Oh no no no in the universe. Okay. Uh Yoda has this saying fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Rest in peace, Yoda. Thank you so much. May the force be with you.