# Power Plays & Political Survival (Episode 84)
Published: 2026-06-05T09:18:14+00:00

## Summary
Host Sam Saad and geopolitical consultant Jason Leong examine the shifting landscape of Malaysian politics, analyzing the depth of PAS's cradle-to-grave machinery and technocratic talent alongside its surprising economic appeal to multinationals in Kedah. They also critique Pakatan Harapan's post-election struggles to shift from poetic opposition rhetoric to effective governing prose, arguing that the Westminster model fundamentally misaligns elected lawmakers with executive and GLC leadership roles.

## Key Takeaways
- [7:03] The era of permanent political winners in Malaysia is over, making coalition governments and ongoing conflict management a healthy sign of democratic maturity.
- [10:27] PAS has systematically built an inescapable social infrastructure from cradle to grave, capturing rural-urban migrant youths through mosques and university networks.
- [13:15] The youth wing of PAS possesses deep technocratic credibility, fielding numerous PhDs, engineers, and corporate professionals rather than purely religious scholars.
- [19:01] Multinationals like Boeing, Infineon, and Porsche invest heavily in PAS-governed Kedah because pragmatic, English-speaking state leaders provide political stability and professional risk management.
- [30:37] Emerging parties like MUDA and Bersama struggle because online social media engagement fails to produce the dedicated ground machinery and funding needed to win elections.
- [37:20] Pakatan Harapan faces growing voter disillusionment because winning campaigns rely on hope and poetry, whereas holding federal power demands delivering concrete economic opportunities in prose.
- [43:50] Appointing parliamentary legislators to oversee federal executive agencies and government-linked companies (GLCs) stifles corporate efficiency and invites systemic political patronage.

## Chapters
0:00 Coalition Dynamics and Electoral Maturity
9:55 Inside the PAS Cradle-to-Grave Machinery
14:40 Bersatu Fragility and Perikatan Nasional Friction
18:33 Multinational FDI in PAS-Led Kedah
25:40 Theological Ceilings and Political Modernization
29:23 MUDA, Bersama, and Grassroots Machine Reality
36:51 Pakatan Harapan: Campaigning in Poetry vs Governing in Prose
40:09 Westminster Flaws: Legislators in Executive Roles

## Transcript
[0:00] We must remember that PH stands for Pakatan Harapan. Yeah, I don't think there's any harapan left. So when you're in the I'm sorry, my apologies, but uh that's my gut feeling. I I don't know what Harapan there is.

[0:16] You see, when when you're in the opposition, your currency is hope. You talk about harapan because the hope or a new hope. You talk about this is what I want change. This is what I want change. This is what I say. And then you get into power 2 and 1/2 years coming to 3 years. Nada.

[0:34] Right. So that is why there is a saying in uh UK politics uh you campaign in poetry. Mhm. But you govern in pros. Mhm. So so when you are in government.

[0:50] Welcome back to the guy short podcast. I'm Shamshaw Sam your host. I'm here today with our consultant extraordinaire uh Jason Yong. Jason, how are you? Thank you for this uh invitation. I'm good. I'm ready to go.

[1:05] Okay. Jason not only uh consults to uh do uh to domestic corporations on geopolitics, but also he consults for multinationals uh with respect to Malaysian politics and Malaysian social economic situation. So I think we've got quite a uh quite a large area to cover especially with the recent announcement of the dissolution of the Johor state assembly.

[1:35] Yes, certainly and uh more than likely we may even see one in the Greece Milan as well. We don't know what is going to happen there. That's right. The G Milan followed by perhaps also blacker.

[1:48] Wow. Now you're talking. Yeah. So ladies and gentlemen, this is going to be an interesting one. You want to stay on. So uh we're basically looking at the next Malaysia where we are heading from a democracy standpoint, power and political survival, right? Um so uh firstly, are we with what is happening right now? Are we really entering into a completely new political era? uh is it becoming a more mature de democracy or in your opinion are we going to be a permanently fractured nation? How let's just go on a macro standpoint first quickly before we zoom in on uh the rise of past PN or the new

[2:35] Malay politics. Yeah, I think there are many people out there who feels that the current political landscape is getting rather chaotic. Uh I would look at it more positively.

[2:49] I don't think it's chaotic. It is a sign of good competition. So there are more and more people who are more interested in political viewpoints and even political parties uh that has been revived or new ones coming up and uh this is a good sign. This is what we call um a path towards the maturity of better democracy in this country. So I would see this as uh healthy and uh well democracy is uh alive and well in Malaysia perhaps we hope that it will flourish.

[3:27] Great because I do I I mean on my part personally I do feel the same way. I think not only do I want to see more political parties uh with different viewpoints and different uh agenda that they present to the people but also I want to see different faces including independent faces that can actually give people choices. I've said in my own monologue that uh we should have uh I mean we should be voting for persons rather than for parties because at the because um really um the person can disagree with the party because the first things first is he represent his constituents. He's not

[4:16] representing the party if you ask me you know I mean this is my own personal point of view uh he may change he may go to his constituent and his constituent may come and tell them tell him we don't agree with his point of view and he should be able to change his mind you know I mean that is a vibrant democracy don't you think so

[4:41] yeah certainly I mean u you don't want to have a party that dictates uh the certain kind of narrative and opinion only to its uh u all its members right uh that would be like curtailing the freedom of thought freedom of speech. So within a political party, yes, it has its own ideology, it has own clear principles of a uh political party, but at the same time to allow the party members uh enough freedom so that ideas, new ideas, opinions, alternative opinions, contrarian opinions can actually float up and the leadership can take note. uh times have changed because

[5:25] I mean we're living in a very dynamic times things change at the speed of light so to speak. Yeah. Right. So in order to create trust you need to have freedom. So if the members are given that kind of freedom to articulate their voices without any negative backlash from the party leadership then I think it makes the party richer and stronger as a whole and and actually it serves the people better because what we are finding lately is actually when uh a a a party elected representative disagree with the leadership they cannot speak out. You know, some get sacked, some get sacked.

[6:09] So, I mean, if they get sacked, for example, they should be able to stay on because they were elected by the people. They were not elected by the party. This is my opinion. Okay? Because and that's why I keep telling people that you vote for the person, you know, and then you see whether the person brings the agenda that you agree with, whether it comes from a party or it comes from himself. So I'm I'm open to even small big party or even independent candidates. At the end of the day, the people who can come together and form government, okay, must be able to work together and

[6:51] say, okay, this is the way we're going to uh that is acceptable to a majority of the voters, you know. So this is the way I look at it anyway.

[7:03] Yeah, certainly. I think uh there should be room for all kinds of opinions and political parties because I think we have come to a stage in Malaysia where uh the era of permanent winners is over.

[7:16] Great. So there is now perhaps permanent negotiation and coalition coalition governments are actually a good sign uh that democracy is actually working. Some people have a cynical view and say oh coalition government that means the democracy is

[7:34] nothing can happen. Yeah. You don't know. Oh, I think it's a sign that democracy is working and uh if they do quarrel uh then there is conflict management within the creation and how they handle that conflict management actually all goes well for the entire country as well

[7:54] because if we can handle conflict management well within this country then there's nothing much to worry we don't have to worry that things will go out of hand uh we can we are mature enough uh we uh stable enough and to be able to deal with power. So now it is about how do we handle and manage power together.

[8:16] Okay. I think let's let's get down to the micro level to the to the ground level. Okay. And see what is actually happening right now. Um I think a lot of people has been concerned especially for people like me who uh uh who wants to see a more modern uh society, a more progressive looking society that can compete in the global world. Okay. So uh however the usage of religion has been very strong in um in our ecosystem uh primarily I think because originally AMO wanted to fight with past and they try to out Islamize past to their own stupidity and detriment. Let me tell you

[9:06] that it was so stupid of Amno to try to out Islam pass because at the end of the day you are losing to pass. So what do you see? Do you see a rise in pass or PN or any other new form of Malay politics? Jason, how do how how have your contacts on the ground been telling you? We want to commu to create this community of critical thinkers,

[9:36] you know. So I think let's spread out this type of thinking uh get people to share uh like and actually if you are not subscribed yet subscribe to this channel so that you get episodes like what we do here at Gishot and you get more of this kind of content. Yeah that's uh this one

[9:55] I think many analysts have mistaken past as basically uh political Islam and it is a religious kind of movement. Yes, religion plays a huge role within uh the party but it would be too narrow a description for pass because if you understand pass uh properly and deep enough you see that pass actually has the entire ecosystem from cradle to grave.

[10:27] Well that's that's that's very much what Islam political Islam was all about actually. So they so you know they are all over that doesn't surprise me they are all over so they have already created that ecosystem uh right from the kindergarten uh pasti schools and then to their own uh schools and then move on to even to the the social infrastructure where

[10:56] actually they have also penetrated universities yes from uh that's why I say it is right from kindergarten all the way up to universities and all the way uh to the young adults uh the working adults. You notice that there is uh quite a bit of a rural urban migration. The young people from Glantan and Tonganu, many of them has kind of migrated to the city

[11:25] cuz they can't find jobs in they can't find jobs, right? So when they leave their rural uh homes, they leave the comfort zone of the family, family, friends and usual contacts and then they come to Kualalon for KL where they don't have family.

[11:43] Uhhuh. They don't have many friends or maybe no friends. So where is the natural place where they will uh move into? The natural place for most of them who are Malaysian Muslims

[11:55] is every Friday where they go for prayers in the mosque and in the mid where they make new friends and they make new uh family family connections in the sense that they are being embraced uh by the religious leaders and most of them are actually. So do you think that this so-cal what has been termed as the green wave do you see that as a inevitability? Um it is actually the way of life. It's not just green. It is a way of life that many of the young people are actually fairly comfortable with. Because if you actually

[12:37] young Malays you mean young Malays even if you look at uh past leadership at the moment. Mhm. uh the old leadership that we are familiar with Harawang you know and uh uh uh Tuan Ibrahim and all all the senior leaders of past

[12:54] right actually we miss out the leadership that is in Permuda Pas past youth mhm there is tremendous depth of talent within past youth because if you look at those people who are in uh in past at that level at the youth wing level.

[13:15] Mhm. I have lost count of the number of PhDs that they have in there. Uh they are very smart. U many of them are also technocrats. They have got good jobs. They are petroleum engineers. Uh they are businessmen. Uh they are in uh what do you call that? Uh uh ESG, sustainable industries, food industries, education and all kinds. So this is the kind of talent which is actually defining us and I believe they are the one that is operationally on the ground and giving us that kind of uh support in terms of the not just the the the ideology or or or the religious but they are there partly

[14:03] also because of their technical skills and technocratic skills. Okay, let I'll get back to you on that part. Right. I'll get back to you on that part. I got some some points I want to I want to raise

[14:16] uh cuz I know that you do have uh quite quite an understanding of um the young past uh technocrats within the particular party. Uh but what what how do you think then PN PN um which is in essence the old amno if you were to ask me am I right

[14:40] yes right um I think they're losing ground or am I wrong we have to distinguish between PN as a coalition and bus right right uh you are right in the sense PN was kind of like an old no because it was made up of Basically Brasatu

[15:01] Brasatu which is a splinter unit from ANO. Right. Right. Just as PKR once was also a splinter unit from AM. Yeah. PKR has got DNA of ANO allong. Yeah. And then put in a bunch of uh non-M in there that are that are then you know uh you know they become good uh nice ornaments. Anyway.

[15:22] Yeah. Go ahead. So within within PN and within Basatu there was a breakup where you see a number of them were sacked people like Hamza Zenuin and gang and so the Moidin gang together with Basatu. So I looked at that because they this is actually the weak point in PN.

[15:43] Why was Hamza Zodin sacked in your opinion? There is apparently a huge disagreement in terms of uh uh direction and uh uh well he he was number two right number one and that definitely uh I think within the within the uh the satu infrastructure itself conflict management was not that great so the whole conflicting kind of like after post election and all that there are a lot of insecurities

[16:19] I think it's a it seems to me to be a lot more of about a tussle for position more than anything for a position or power uh of power consolidation.

[16:31] Yes. So uh so it just imploded, right? But uh the the thing is that many of those in Basatu have also forgotten that it is actually the past machinery and network that held out itself.

[16:47] Uh yeah, Basatu and Pata and PN itself, right? So the gains basu candidates uh who have won in the previous election uh have also forgotten that they won because past was helping them to campaign.

[17:03] So let me ask you for from your standpoint this is very interesting. I'm talking about Malay politics with the Chinese. um you know but it's good because why you have an outside uh out outside point of view uh of a semi insider right um and and you got a bit more objectivity in the way you look at things okay um if that's the case really um I I sort of have in my mind and I want to say how I look at past But who is there to actually challenge pass with respect to its Islamist ideology uh within the other parties for the Malay uh heartland?

[17:56] Well, naturally pass has an advantage because they have been I mean people forget that pass has been campaigning every day. Yeah. And they have the infrastructure for the whole infrastructure right for I say from cradle to grid. So they have been doing that every day unlike all the other political parties. Okay, now election season now we start campaigning.

[18:14] Correct. But beyond just the political Islam and the religious t I think many people also fail to see right that past has focused on investments and on the economy actually fairly well. Take for example,

[18:33] give me an example in Kadada, right? Boeing is an American company. They used to have a small stake in one of those companies uh doing composite products uh in uh in Kada and they decided to buy that company out because uh they were just like I think probably about 49% so now they have bought it up so it's 100% American and they have expanded.

[19:01] Mhm. the entire operations. Uh I visited that factory. Uh it has 1,500 workers. Mhm. And they are manufacturing these are high-end products, composite products for the Boeing jets. Correct. Uh that means they make certain parts which are now why would an American company who knows exactly what past is all about who probably have done it costbenefit analysis yet proceeded and expanded the factory in Kad

[19:36] why Americans have done their homework you think they don't know about past they uh that means they have weighed the political risk and they say that look In terms of the religious aspect, they believe that it can be managed because the people whom they have come into contact with in the Kada state government like the Kada State Metropa Sanusi Sanusi is a USM graduate and also the exo in charge of uh investment in past uh Dr. Him Hillman. He is uh formerly he was formerly academic in the university. Uh I think he was fired and then he went into politics. Uh but these are people who

[20:22] speak good fluent English and when they engage with the Americans they were able to convince the Americans that hey here uh this is a state that is worthwhile investing despite whatever perception that you see that pass is a religious party can be extremist I mean for Americans they don't just take investment and do investment lightly Right. They have done their homework and yet they proceeded with it's not just Boeing. Uh first

[20:54] which other companies are we looking at? First solar is there. Uh it's American company. Infinion is there. They have also expanded. Infinion is probably German and uh Porche just decided to do it assembly in uh Kada as well. So again why so and for the past two years or so Kada has one of the highest FDIs or foreign direct investment uh into

[21:24] okay yeah despite the fact that they are basically an opposition state not much support really maybe from the the federal government but on their own they have been able to go and court and win the confidence of these foreign investors coming in uh to to invest especially when we talk about international investors, American investors, German investors. So that itself is already a sign uh that the confidence of the investors overseas uh looking at pass in a very different lens from the usual political lens that we have uh for Malaysians looking at pass as a

[22:05] religious party. Um I think okay that's very interesting what you've just pointed out. Um uh I think um I think that's uh looking at that then AMNO has got quite a challenge if it ever is going to be revived. You know I I have I have bad uh feelings about a revival of ANO you know. Um uh so uh on on on the other hand in terms of the in terms of the electorate itself I mean Kantan Tranganu has not seen the kind of uh investments that uh that probably the way you see Kadal has right

[22:57] at the same time as well what is concerning because why uh the Americans the Europeans Ians can go and invest into a country or into any area they want. Um but uh but as far as the um the politics or the polit I mean come on let's put it this way they can work with Saddam Hussein right they can work with Syria they can work with uh you know yeah they they they they willing to even uh invest in Venezuela uh even when there is a dictator dictatorship either whether it was in Venezuela until the dictatorship uh goes against them,

[23:47] right? So that is from an investment per se you know but from a a political progression point of view uh that is my concern actually because why at the end of the day all you need is a good leadership to actually not just look at economic benefit but also look at uh the development of the people. Yes.

[24:18] Right. So let's leave it at that that is a point to ponder I must say that is very different than what I have heard from other people. All we hear from other people are basically the boogeyman of past.

[24:31] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um so that's a that's an interesting actually the the on this point is I think the the perception is this that all the past people um they are kind of like you they they have they are like

[24:50] whether or not he is a petroleum engineer you you will call him an partly because of the training the religious training that they have that every past leader will go through that religious training

[25:03] so much so that every one of them technically qualify to be and they can lead in prayers. Uh so this is the the the thing but the fact is that uh despite the fact they are called they have a good religious uh grounding and foundation but they are also tenttocrats because they their day job is not as

[25:26] I would love to I I I would really love to have a uh a podcast with to be honest or somebody of uh that is if uh this one because this This is a very interesting standpoint.

[25:40] Yeah. Okay. Um uh but at the same time I have my own personal problem with respect to how when you uh govern uh on a theolog theological basis

[25:54] how much can you bring up uh the progress of your state. I do feel that there is a ceiling to what you can do. I mean it's almost like playing basketball right? If you if you guys play basketball like I do when I was in college, okay, I'm not a great one being short. I I have the advantage of being black, but uh I was, you know, I was short, right? But you know, the advantage is this. The the disadvantage is this. The disadvantage is actually the ceiling of uh of if your people uh you may have uh you you may have technocratic uh uh bent at leadership level but when

[26:48] your masters are not technically bent or technically savvy you will hit a select And unfortunately from what I have seen okay within the Malay community we are going backwards and backwards and we are still blaming the non-Malays for our own uh for our own uh uh what do you call um uh our own um less of equity or less of opportunity when when it is actually pretty self-imposed if you were to ask me you know so anyway I I don't want to belabor that point I want to go to another uh another side of your of your analysis what about the smaller parties that is coming up what about Muda Rafiz Dupati

[27:48] Basama I've seen through their manifesto I must say I'm going to do a specific segment ment on Basama manifesto. Uh guys, so we are talking about a smaller parties, right? Um what's your opinion of where Muda is going to stand? how Rafi is gonna uh and and Basama is gonna is going to work out because it seems to have a lot of momentum um especially with uh this feeling of dissatisfaction with PKR and even DAP uh among the electorate that is nonIslamist in nature you know

[28:27] so because it seems to me that PKR has become like the old Amno you know um uh what do you call catering for the for for for for all the socialism and welfareism uh to the Malay community and neglecting their voting bag

[28:48] you know which is basically uh uh the the the more liberal Malays and also the the non-Malays uh so how do you see this going to play out you know and is There any place for uh uh another party to come in or another set of uh you know strong independence into this into this whole fray that we see today with this uh with what has happened with especially Basama and Muda.

[29:23] The easiest thing in politics in Malaysia, right, is to start a party. Okay. The more difficult thing, the hardest thing is to survive your second general election. Many parties have been started. We have seen so many parties uh and they've been started by people whom you don't even know, right? Who started bas

[29:54] PBM? Yeah, we have so many we have uh I mean we used to have I mean where is PSM now? Yeah, PSM and so many other parties I think no less than 30 parties and many of them are pretty dominant right for takeover and all that. Muda and Basama uh has demonstrated a lot of enthusiasm in terms of the young political voices

[30:20] but I believe in politics enthusiasm alone is not good enough. M uh if you follow their social media, Basama has generated a lot of uh social media buzz uh they have a lot of followers but followers are not waters.

[30:37] Yeah. Right. Followers are not wers and even waters are not volunteers. So you need to move in terms of from a voter or supporter to become a volunteer who will actually do the hard work on the ground. I mean political campaigning on the ground, you need a machinery,

[31:00] right? So you must have that ground game. You must have the machinery that can survive and carry you through uh doing the half campaign. So I Masama has yet to prove himself. Malaysia has many charismatic leaders. But

[31:15] do we we soal charis charismatic leaders? Uh well there are people who will say that well PMX is one of those. Uh and uh even KJ has been touted as one of those. Uh and of course Rhysi is now included into that group. Uh

[31:35] but I have two problem with that problemization. Right. Charismatic leaders, you need to also have substance. Yeah. You know, the second part of my sentence is charismatic leadersh. The graveyard of Malaysian politics are littered with charismatic leaders. Okay? Many of them crash and burn. They never achieve it. Right? So that's it. So charisma alone is not going to carry you. Uh so you need a ground game. And then for for for Uh, this one I probably have to say straight to a physi. Uh, why did you still block me on Twitter and X?

[32:18] Why? Why you got blocked? I got blocked. Yeah. By Rafi himself personally. Why? I don't know. I don't know why. So I have tweeted him at his party and say why do you still block me? So I mean this.

[32:34] But did you ask him anything? I was blown way way back. Okay. When he was still in PKR, right? Must have touched some raw nerve somewhere. Raw nerve. But as a politician that I mean it already shows the the character and the substance of a person.

[32:52] Well, guys, let's put it this way. Did you got blocked by PMX? Uh, no. Huh? Uh, no. Well, only our our good friend Ar I mean I got so much flag just doing this program on gutshot from all sorts of people I don't care everybody have the right to their own opinion you know the funny thing is about this blocking thing and all that you know say whatever you want you must have the thick skin in politics right and you need to have the

[33:27] the the lack of ego go to be criticized. You must have that thick skin. Yeah. Able to accept criticism no matter how how how how intense that criticism is.

[33:39] Right. I mean just a just a forewarning I'm going to do some constructive criticism on Basama. I don't know whether it's going to be taken as a constructive but the next episode me and say are going to go through the basama's uh manifesto just for the benefit of Pasama and also for the benefit of our voters you know uh but watch out for that one but in any case having spoken about that right don't you think that Rafi would have got uh his uh his uh his his machinery that he's built within PKR that actually has has has migrated with him.

[34:22] How much of that has happened? It remains to be seen. He said that within a week or two he has already gathered gathered something like 20,000 vote members or something like that but it remains to be seen. He has also made a statement that he will contest uh all 56 seats in the Joho state election. That remains to be seen. I I think the Joh state election came as a pretty uh s much of a surprise for him. Uh so

[34:51] I don't agree. Milan will be the first one to to drop. So is is uh Basama really prepared? Do they have 56 candidates to offer to stand in Joho? And even if they do, uh, as far as I look at it, the way things are, without the proper ground machinery and the kind of funding that you need to fund 56 candidates, I I really doubt I think he has to show that he can win any seat.

[35:20] But then again, I mean, it does back the question, doesn't it? Can PH survive with what is going on right now? I mean, DAP, let's put it this way. I I I I've been in business for 30 years. All right. I don't do GLC. I I'm not part of any GLC business. Uh uh uh except for a short stint. Um I did business with uh uh panorangan but other than that my business has been very much uh uh purely private sector and that means that a lot of my partnerships are with uh uh with with Chinese and Indians and and whatn not you know and I can tell you the amount of dissatisfaction that I get from my circle

[36:15] uh with their dissatisfaction of DAP. I just can't I I it's it's it's something that is uh amazing. It's almost like how they were talking about MCA before they dump MCA into the trash can of history. So, I mean, unless they say, "I've got no choice or it's going to be an apathetic turn by the voter and just say they're not going to vote." I don't know. Where do you see this going with PH and DAP?

[36:51] Well, uh, in that scenario and especially with the breakup of PKR, we must remember that PH stands for Pakistan Harapan. Yeah, I don't think there's any harapan left. So when you're in the

[37:03] I'm sorry, my apologies, but uh that's my gut feeling. I I don't know what harapan there is. You see, when when you're in the opposition, your currency is hope. You talk about harapan because the hope or a new hope.

[37:20] You talk about this is what I want change. This is what I want change. This is what and then you get into power two and a half years coming to three years. Nada. Right. So that is why there is a saying in uh UK politics uh you campaign in poetry.

[37:38] Mhm. But you govern in pros. Mhm. So so when you are in government uh the narrative should no longer be so much on the hope. The narrative should be on opportunity. That is why it is always about hope and opportunity. So when you govern you must be a government that provide opportunities across the board because when you deliver and you provide opportunities that's where the delivery is whether it is the reform or whatever once you provide that kind of opportunities on the ground whether social education economics or any other thing and people feel that hey it's true

[38:20] this party gave us hope and now they are ruling and they are now providing the opportunity ities. So I sense that this is a good future. Uh now I got good opportunities and education. I got good economic opportunities. I got job opportunities. Stuff like this needs to be rolled out on the ground

[38:41] and and unfortunately we have not seen anything substantive from that standpoint. I mean they call about two-term limit. They not they didn't fail to be honest. In my opinion, it was just a show a show horse for them. Okay. Uh they can't even handle something as simple as UEC and they try to interlock it with the toughies uh certific toughest entrance. Uh you've got uh stupid issues like banning uh banning alcohol in even uh uh functions where Chinese schools are uh involved in you know in in Chinese schools. I mean such a dumb you know I cannot understand it. So, and

[39:31] you thought that would be coming from a past uh government, you know, I mean, what the hell is going on? We are supposed to be a country with a lot of potential, but we are not fulfilling the potential because of the leadership that we have and the representative that we have.

[39:55] Yeah. Jason, you and I are very much uh pane involved in American politics. Yeah. Right. I mean, I've always loved the chaos of American politics and that's why to me chaosh is not a problem.

[40:09] Yeah. It's not a problem because we can see how much they have progressed in spite of their chaos. In fact, their chaos is what propelled their their their progress. Yes. But did you think we have a bit of a problem with our commonwealth system? You imagine this uh we have elected representative as members of parliament or assemblymen who are actually legislators.

[40:35] Yes. Okay. That is their job. Ladies and gentlemen, MPs are legislators. Okay. They are not executives. They're not people who can run things. They've been through the political party system. you know, you would expect actually most of your MPs to be lawyers if you were to ask me. Okay. Um, with a vision of actually technocratic people, right? But they must understand law. Okay? So ask ourselves how are these MPs legislators are then supposed to govern a nation in the American system or in a republican system. In a republic you have an executive that is actually

[41:30] coming out of whether it is a party or not. The fellow is groomed to be an executive. Yeah. And then he build his own cabinet as if a senior management team of a corporation.

[41:44] Yeah. And they run the country and he's elected. And he's elected. Right. So we've got a system that actually unfortunately I do believe we've come to a point where we're hitting a ceiling. What What say you when you think about this? I I I got stuck, man. when when I think about you know this upcoming election what am I hopeful for GE16 you know I can't see a way out unless we bring people who are prom the private sector and actually run the country because being a politician is one thing running a country is another doing law is one thing running a country is another

[42:35] yeah that that Why? Uh uh it is actually quite interesting because uh well in as as far as the political system of this country is concerned we are kind of stuck with the Westminster parliamentary democracy

[42:50] and you can see what's happening with the Westminster system. I think the I think Europe and and even the British are having a problem now because the world has changed that they don't no longer have an empire.

[43:03] Yeah. you know and now they don't know what do they keep changing people because they are not they they're not management material it is also true but at the same time those are very mature democracies for Malaysia I would like to be a bit more positive and optimistic we are fairly young democracy 60 over years and uh so we are now grappling with it and I think given time Well, we should be able to come to a state where uh where we are a state where we get get the best of it. But you're right in terms of like people are elected as uh MPs is to a legislature to the parliament to make laws

[43:50] to make laws. Yeah. So they are lawmakers technically and they're not part of the executive. The executive is formed by the cabinet and and the prime minister and all else. Uh but it is also an important principle not to put politicians who are lawmakers to run GLC's.

[44:10] W that is a given. Yeah, that is where a lot of problem is. Not just that, my friend. How can you get a legislature who comes from a cooking background

[44:22] or uh a a a legislature who actually uh get a theological uh degree or I don't even care whether the the the the minister is a is a PhD in theology to go and run education department. That is the most stupid I have ever heard.

[44:43] Right. So if we if we keep politicians out of the corporate sector, the GLC and the sector which is the private sector uh the economic sector then I think we can get more better rail talents uh to run this and they become more efficient. That is why so many of our GLC's are not very efficiently run and uh there are all kinds of things that happen uh in the GLC's sometime abuse and all that but as far as PKR specifically is concerned uh I'm actually wondering as many people are wondering now and the question is no longer whether PMX or PM Anoa Ibrahim can yes he can uh but the

[45:33] question now is what comes after an well let's put it this way with that last statement I'm going to shall we wrap up for this for today there's a lot more we can go through I think we'll leave that for uh for coming episodes

[45:52] um I would like to thank Jason for coming along and actually just putting the lay of the land for the time being I think that's a good start for our discussion let's you again next time and we go slightly deeper.

[46:06] Sure. Thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it. See you all again. Bye-bye.